LDS Podcast "Latter-Day Lights" - Inspirational LDS Stories

Transforming a Secret Addiction into Radical Honesty: Heather & Cameron Berry's Story - Latter-Day Lights

• Scott Brandley and Micheal Slade

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When decades of lies and betrayal suddenly unravel, can the atonement stitch a marriage back together?

On today’s episode of Latter-day Lights, we meet Heather and Cameron Berry—a couple whose world collapsed the instant one accidental photo exposed Cameron’s hidden, 30-year pornography addiction. In a single breath, trust was gone, and a once-steady marriage felt like moments from ending.

Yet, from inside the wreckage, a different kind of miracle began to form. 

Through individual healing, and applying the “belief breakthrough” technique, the Berry's traded silence for radical honesty. And in turn, witnessed Christ transform secrecy into sacred intimacy. 

The Berry's discovered that the atonement is more than a doctrine—it’s a rescue mission; and that sexuality is far from weaponry—it’s a crowning gift.

If you’ve ever wondered whether betrayal is the end-all be-all of a love story, Cameron and Heather’s journey shows how the Savior can write an even stronger chapter than the one that came before.

*** Please SHARE Heather & Cameron's story and help us spread hope and light to others. ***

To WATCH this episode, visit: https://youtu.be/v6A_Dev88a4

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To READ Heather & Cameron's workbook "Beyond Betrayal: A Healing Guide for Couples," visit: https://theshiftup.com/beyondbetrayalguide

To LISTEN to Heather & Cameron's podcast "The SHIFTup! Podcast," visit: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-shiftup-podcast/id1720436734

To READ Scott’s book “Faith to Stay,” visit: https://www.faithtostay.com/

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Also, if you have a faith-promoting or inspiring story, or know someone who does, please let us know by going to https://www.latterdaylights.com and reaching out to us.

Scott Brandley:

Hey there as a Latter-day Lights listener, I want to give you a very special gift today my brand new book, faith to Stay. This book is filled with inspiring stories, powerful discoveries and even fresh insights to help strengthen your faith during the storms of life. So if you're looking to be inspired, uplifted and spiritually recharged, just visit faithtostaycom. Now let's get back to the show. Hey everyone, I'm Scott Brandley.

Heather Berry:

And I'm Michael Slade. Every member has a story to share, one that will instill faith, invite hope and inspire others.

Scott Brandley:

On today's episode we're going to learn how coping with a 30-year addiction is helping one couple better understand the power of the atonement and grow closer together. Welcome to Latter-day Lights. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Latter-day Lights. We're so glad you're here with us today and we're really excited to introduce our special guests. We have two of them today Cameron and Heather Berry. Welcome to the show.

Micheal Slade:

Hi Scott, Thank you so much for having us.

Cameron Berry:

Yes, thank you.

Scott Brandley:

You bet I also have a special co-host, a previous guest to Latter-day Lights, Michael Slate. Welcome. Thanks for coming and hanging out with us, man.

Heather Berry:

Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for the invite.

Scott Brandley:

Cool. Well, this is going to be an interesting episode. We haven't had a lot of couples come on the show, but when we do it's usually a pretty good experience. So why don't we just jump in and have you guys tell us a little bit about yourselves?

Cameron Berry:

My name is Cameron Berry. Born in Houston, texas, grew up in Florida, served an LDS mission in California Oakland Mission and then went to Virginia to go to school and met my wife.

Micheal Slade:

Oh, in Virginia.

Cameron Berry:

Yeah.

Micheal Slade:

Yeah, I was born and raised in California. We did not meet while he was on his mission.

Cameron Berry:

No.

Micheal Slade:

Different parts of the state. But, yeah, I moved out after some work and school to Southern Virginia University where he was currently living and working, and we quickly became really good friends and had a foundation of friendship. That was really important to both of us. And a little how long were we? A year and a couple months. We we didn't really date, we were just such good friends and both had separate confirmations from the spirit that marriage was a logical and meaningful choice for us moving forward and things moved pretty quickly once we figured that out. So we lived there for about a decade, had four of our children in Virginia and then about a decade ago we moved to Utah and had our fifth little caboose while we've been here. So five kids ranging from 18 to five and, yeah, living life.

Scott Brandley:

Awesome, great, well, welcome. We're glad you're here with us, know your um, your story spans a long period of time and, uh, I'm interested to see how it, how it's all gonna come out. So why don't we turn the time over to you guys and tell us where your story begins?

Cameron Berry:

okay, should we start with thanksgiving uh, yeah, right after thanksgiving in 2022, um, uh, I went to show my wife a photo that I thought was really cute of my daughter wearing uh the shoes, high heels she had pulled from my closet when when I opened the photo reel I didn't see it, but there was a pornographic photo in there as well.

Cameron Berry:

She did and uh, and then that, um, that uh. That caught me, you know, cold, both of us, both of us and uh, and though I I tried to play it off pretty hard for about a day. Um, it finally helped open me up. It turned out to be the best thing that ever happened to me, period in my life. It opened me up to be able to share with my wife an addiction that I'd had our entire marriage and also a good chunk of my life before we were married.

Micheal Slade:

Yeah, it was not something that I ever expected. It's not so much that I thought he was immune to temptations. No, you know, I've known it's a problem for so many people, but it was something that I didn't expect to not know was a problem because of our friendship. Like you know, we mentioned earlier, we were such good friends, best friends, and we talked about things. We weren't a couple that didn't talk. We talked often about, you know, various subjects, deep discussions. We weren't people that avoided hard conversations.

Micheal Slade:

So what was so off putting for me was that this person that I had trusted and believed would share especially something like that. You know, in light of our belief system and and what we hold hold dear as far as our standards and way that we want to live, we agreed that things like this were not something that we wanted to be part of our marriage or life. So to think that he wouldn't share that with me was just completely. It's like you're driving down the freeway 70 miles an hour and you hit a brick wall. Like you're driving down the freeway 70 miles an hour and you hit a brick wall. And it was interesting because he it really was a difficult thing and maybe you can talk about that in a second where he literally didn't know how to tell me. And so you know he had, he was struggling to share and he you know finding reasons why.

Micheal Slade:

You know that picture was there and you know excuses really, and up until the moment he told off like that's how off putting it was for me and I just believe that I would have, I would have known about something like that, that wouldn't be something that could be hidden, and so for me that moment felt like everything turned upside down. I didn't know what was real. I questioned, I questioned our relationship altogether. Was this actually a real relationship? Is what you told me true? Who are you? My mind was just reeling. It was a very morning, so we had church to go to that day and it was one of the most difficult moments of my life, I think.

Cameron Berry:

Didn't know what to think or feel yeah, but what was really amazing about this whole experience? It's one of those things, like you go through something super difficult, I don't know you run a marathon or you've had a bad illness, or maybe you threw your back out how much it helped you to live better and to live just to know certain things much deeper. So, for instance, a couple of days after this all happened, we're now talking a lot and kind of a little bit of my backstory to kind of help understand myself and kind of where I was coming from. And what I didn't even know that I was dealing with but I had for my whole life is I had grown up in a home that was very loving, but there was some turmoil, and I was the middle kid who was the pleaser, the one who was easy. I was the easy kid, and so I learned at a very, very young age to hide, and usually I would mask any kind of like, any feelings and things that I thought might be disruptive, and so to me it was just second nature, and there's a lot of these things I think we operate on, we just don't realize. And so then, when it came to sexuality and pornography, that just became something I just would hide.

Cameron Berry:

And so what was really interesting and amazing was, a couple of days after this all happened, we sat down. I can still remember the. It was an evening and we were both sitting on the couch, the lights were kind of all off and we were just talking in the dark sort of, and I just I went from a switch that said, to keep myself safe, I needed to hide to. To keep myself safe, I needed to say everything. And I said everything. I kind of jokingly say it's like you know, if you remember the movie the Goonies, when when Chunk is sitting down with the Fratellis and he's he's spilling his guts and he's just saying everything he doesn't have to say.

Cameron Berry:

Like I was basically that I was just, you know, crying and saying just everything I could think of, and I went to a space where I of extreme radical honesty and the what that did emotionally to me was amazing. I never, I don't think I'd ever felt that kind of freedom. At the same time, I was extremely uncomfortable. It was things I did not want to talk about, but I said everything and then I just kind of made it a thing that after that, if I thought of something I didn't want to say, like, well, I'm going to say it. You know, and it really has helped deepen our relationship and it did it rapidly, very fast, helped deepen our relationship and it did it rapidly, very fast.

Micheal Slade:

And it was. It was interesting because while we, while we did talk a lot, and while we we were a couple that did communicate with one another, there was still because of the hiding on his part. And then, you know and I'll talk a little bit more I realized I had been hiding a lot as well. Nothing, not not a serious transgression or anything like that, but just not being able to fully be myself. Intimacy, intimacy, yeah, being known and being seen as you are, regardless of the bumps and bruises, the, you know, the warts that we all wish weren't there and and try to hide. And so it was a very strange experience because there was so much, you know, I felt the immense pain of betrayal, I've been lied to, but then there was this he was showing me who he was and trusting me with things that I knew that were extremely uncomfortable and sensitive, and I just felt so very close to him. And so it was this like whiplash type feeling, because I would go in through the grieving, you know, I would be walking through the grocery store and it would like the thought would come that Cameron had lied to me, he'd been watching porn and lied to me for, you know, 18 years, almost two decades, and and it would be like the first time I heard it and I would be like trying to hold back tears and then we would, we would talk and it would be just such this, this weird, like like I said whiplash of feeling super connected and close but then grappling with grief and pain from just trying to make sense of how this all worked and what was actually going on. But it was like Cameron said, it was a very rapid growth process and part of that, too, came from a decision that I made in the very early few days. I don't even know, timeline is so blurry for me. I remember sitting on my bed and it just hit me like it poured over me how many couples that I knew about personally or knew through others who had a situation such as this and it ended in divorce. And you know, the person with the addiction didn't get better and the other person had trouble forgiving or continued to be betrayed, had trouble forgiving or or continued to be betrayed and and I just saw that like I thought about that happening to us and it just scared me because I didn't want to lose my marriage. This is my best friend, who I was really disappointed in and was hurt, but I also loved, and I reached out to a friend of mine who was also a coach, a life coach of sorts and she is also a coach, a life coach of sorts and she, she worked with me and, and the process that we worked on is something called belief breakthrough, and I was able to to tap into a belief system and structure inside of myself that was causing me pain Because, in reality, cameron's problem didn't mean anything about me.

Micheal Slade:

This was his problem, this was something that he was dealing with, and pornography happened to be the mechanism he used to soothe and to heal what he was trying to heal. And what that allowed me to do that day was to get out of my own way and to work towards healing not healing not just our marriage, but myself, because that's all I really had control over. And um, and I just remember leaving that phone call with her that day, feeling hopeful in a way that I was going to do everything in my power to be supportive and to help heal what was going on, and not heal him, because that's not possible for me to do, but heal myself, because I started to see areas in my own life where I had contributed to the breakdown in our marriage. There were things that I had done and ways I showed up that made it a lot easier for him to feel like he needed to hide this for me. Now I'm not taking ownership, because his choice was to lie about it. His choice was to withhold that for me, and I want to be really clear. That wasn't my fault, but I also was not, so I'll share it in this way.

Micheal Slade:

Anytime we did have a conversation about things like this you know found out that that's somebody we knew had been struggling with pornography addiction. You know we'd have a conversation about it and it wouldn't be. I'd never approach him and say something like how are you doing with that? Like an open curiosity, how are you handling that? I know there's traps all around. I mean, that's what it's for. It's meant to get as many people in as possible. I would approach it in saying something like that's not your problem, is it? Or you don't struggle with that, do you? And it was never an open-ended question where he could feel comfortable at least, or more comfortable. It's probably never comfortable to come and say you know I'm actually struggling or have been struggling.

Micheal Slade:

I was in such a place, where that would have been an intolerable answer for me. And part of that came from unintended messages. Growing up, you know, I remember sitting in young women's at church and the warnings you know, make sure you're careful about that and they're well-meaning warnings. But the message was if you marry somebody with a pornography addiction, that'll destroy your marriage. You know, so I like, if I married somebody with a pornography addiction, that'll destroy your marriage. You know so I like. If I married somebody with a pornography addiction, then I would. It would destroy my marriage. So I couldn't have that answer. It was just like it wasn't something I could tolerate.

Micheal Slade:

And so you know Cameron talks about how how this moment was a gift. It's difficult as it was, but for me it was also a gift because it caused me to confront inside of myself things that were broken and things that weren't allowing the atonement to really be applicable in my life, where I was closing out this opportunity to learn and grow and go through difficult things because of what it meant about me. I wasn't safe. So I got to learn a lot about myself and what drives me safety, learning that a lot of things are a checklist to do right get married in the temple, have children, do all these things and I was focusing so much on keeping safe and transactional but I didn't know how to actually deal with life and the bumps that come along and embrace the gift of the atonement fully.

Cameron Berry:

Yeah, and I think that's really beautiful.

Cameron Berry:

We had this strange thing happening where I did go to ARP and we did go to a therapist, but the therapist struggled to find things like we were.

Cameron Berry:

We were running ahead of where he thought normally we would be in this process and I think, as you can tell by what, what, how Heather's talking what really, what really just skyrocketed our healing so fast was that we both went to a space of not just truthfulness but of responsibility. Like one of the first things I even told Heather was like there was no way this is any of your fault, like things were not always perfect and like there were times that, like you know, our intimacy was not as strong as we wanted it to be, but that was never a good reason for my actions. I think by both of us taking the strong stance of responsibility for where we could work on this and where we influence things to not be where they were, it just so rapidly, like a rocket ship, just brought us to much higher levels that I still feel like. I felt like our marriage was a good, solid eight or nine before and then we just kept hitting that level of 10 or 11 and keep going higher and it keeps breaking that barrier, now even.

Micheal Slade:

We were living far beneath the privilege of marriage, of marriage, especially eternal, celestial marriage. And, and you know, through this whole process it's become really clear to me that you know we have a lot of preparatory work that we do before we get married, especially in the temple for time and eternity and like, and a lot of it is guided, you know, for us as we go through primary and Sunday school and through church and just all of those things and as we go, even go through the temple. But marriage is, like this higher level education, really been significant. Is that the reason why God gave us marriage, I think, is to help us heal. There's nothing quite like somebody else that you share a life with and if you choose into real intimacy to really let that other person inside and to see you and to move towards something eternal and greater, you are going to be confronted with the worst inside of yourself. And then what do you do with that?

Micheal Slade:

And for me, this really gave me an opportunity to see quite clearly all the ugly and unhealed and broken parts inside of me and without it I just. You know people have all these reasons why marriage isn't important today, why it's not necessary. It's just a piece of paper. You know, commitment is commitment, but I just it's just been such a testimony, building experience to me of the power of marriage and what it does for us as individuals it's not just this checkbox to be able to enter into the kingdom of heaven one day. It's something that you are, that you need to cultivate and build now, otherwise you will be severely lacking once we get to be with God again, and it's such a gift and privilege to have that opportunity here on this earth to grow.

Scott Brandley:

That's some serious introspection on your side. You wouldn't think that when somebody would come out and your partner would come out and say they've had this addiction, for you to actually have that introspection on your side. What am I doing that I could be doing better Almost because of that situation. It's really interesting.

Cameron Berry:

That's a tricky balance right, Because, like she's been careful to say and we're always careful to share my actions were not her fault. What I did was what I wasn't responsible for, and we've done a lot of like mindset work and stuff like that before, and that was also very helpful and a nice foundation for this whole process, because we could immediately go back to some of these teachings we've learned, and that really is one of the core things you really need to most of us have a struggle with. It's like when you ask your kids to like clean up the room, they're going to turn over to their other brother and sister and start bossing them to start first. Like, why? Like, like they, they have two hands and they're ready to go. We can deal with them, you know. But but that's that's it's. It's just a human condition we're we're very conditioned in this manner to to wonder how some to try to fix somebody else, to fix us, and how some to try to fix somebody else to fix us.

Cameron Berry:

And, um, by just having that core mindset that we're, we're the one that's the agent of change in our life when something like this came up, it was nice to be able to fall back and not realize okay, where do, where, where can I stand on this? Where can I make something better and influence my future?

Micheal Slade:

and something and that is more beneficial and it wasn't necessarily a very neat and tidy process. You know, we're talking about it now two and a half years past the moment and and I had plenty of moments where I wanted to fix him and I was going to fix the problem, and you know, and that looked a lot like okay, you know what programs can we put on your phone? And just like accountability he like for a for a long period you, you put like we what programs can we put on your phone?

Micheal Slade:

and just like accountability he like for a for a long period, you you put like we, we slept with his phone underneath my side of the mattress so if we had to go get it at night, like and I think that was even your idea, but it was things like that, things, things that were like to control the situation, that helped me feel more comfortable. But you know, the the the more work we did and the longer that we comfortable. But you know, the more work we did and the longer that we, you know, really dug into the principles of truth, not just these things that we try to do to feel better. You know he, the safety, came from within me, not anything he could do, because the reality is, you know he had already figured out a way and we weren't a couple that he didn't travel a lot, I didn't travel tons. You know we were together most evenings we slept in the same room like the opportunity. I didn't think there was much space for opportunity. And so reality is, if he wants to hide something or do something, he's going to figure that out. There's nothing I can do, there's nothing that you know, any any rule I could put in place that was going to protect him and me from this happening again, and it was.

Micheal Slade:

It was really. Can I, can I become the kind of person that can tolerate disappointment, setbacks, frustration, hurt, and still show up in the way that I, that I can live in integrity with myself? And and you know I'm still on that journey? I have weak moments where you know it's interesting what happens with fear and anger and why they're tools of the devil, because the moment those, those feelings are there, my ability to, to, to ability to see and expand the space between stimulus and response goes away. It's like it shortens drastically when fear or anger are there.

Micheal Slade:

But when I have peace, when I can bring the spirit into my life and I am settled on the foundation of Christ and the atonement, um, that space between stimulus and response gets wider and I get to choose how I want to show up in those moments. And so anger and fear are just nothing good ever comes from, those being the triggers, um, where we we try and solve a problem. And you know I've been through that. I've had moments where I was just so angry and shaking like, so mad about everything, but thankfully I had a foundation of understanding those principles. So when that moment passed, I could reclaim my peace again and I could step back on solid foundation. Peace again and I could step back on solid foundation. But fear and anger are some powerful tools of the devil, yeah.

Cameron Berry:

Yeah, and so are shame yeah.

Scott Brandley:

What about communication? How has communication been a part of this process?

Micheal Slade:

in the morning and I could not go to sleep like 3am and I like I lost my appetite and it was just like it was such an extreme, like just shock to my system. And so I tried not to wake him up because, you know, I knew he had, he had to go to work and but he decided to get up with me when he noticed that I was awake and and we would just sit and talk for hours. I mean, sometimes like we would be talking for like hours and hours before you even went to work, and then at the evening we would, we would talk again, and it was, I mean, I'm quite sure that wasn't your favorite thing in the world to do, but I had questions and I needed to make sense of what I thought I understood and what was real. And so the communication, I think, was like, like Cameron was saying earlier, his choice into radical honesty, and I played the game too. You know, I realized that I had, like I would like, like I said before, it wasn't anything like major that I needed to disclose, that was something wrong I had done. It was more like, well, that's an embarrassing memory. I, I just don't need to ever bring that up Right, like we all have those moments in life.

Micheal Slade:

And you know he was playing that game of I don't we called it, I don't want to tell you, but I but I will, and so I would do the same and it became something that that we both I think, I think it was helpful and you can speak to that for yourself, but that he wasn't going through it alone. He wasn't going through all the awkward because it had been decades of lies, it wasn't all at once. You know, you just don't remember things and something would come up and you'd be like I think I should say that, and so we just we just created space for that. And it wasn't always perfect and sometimes I got hurt and sometimes I got angry, but then we were able to regroup and he was very patient through all of that and never threw it back in my face. He was very understanding and I really appreciated that.

Micheal Slade:

Yeah, not, not, not all couples deal with that. A lot of times, you know, I've dealt, I've delved into the uh, marriage and family dynamics with, with this type of uh, disclosure and deception and whatnot, and oftentimes there's defensiveness that comes up for the person that's, that's lied, because it's hard, it's difficult and they want to. You know I'm not all bad and you know, and gosh, I went through moments where I questioned are you all bad? And that that has to be so hard. I understand the defensiveness that can come up, but he never did that. He just allowed me to process and to ask questions and that was exceptionally helpful for me.

Heather Berry:

Yeah.

Cameron Berry:

I think that really, really, really grappling with what shame is and how it's operated in our life was one of the big aspects of this whole thing Is that shame thrives in private and in the dark. Uh, that's, that was a big motivating factor for me not to talk, and so being so open and being so, uh, honest, just so brutally honest, was was a way of just kind of just shattering that whole shame bubble and her, you know, holding space for that, which was not always easy, um, was really, was really crucial. So it was. It was just an amazing, amazing combination that, like I said, even though that moment, that day, you know, with that photo was could be seen as like a horrible day of my life and it's not something I want to relive, that's for sure it was definitely the most amazing day of my life because since then, it's just the amount of freedom I feel.

Cameron Berry:

There was strange like knock-on effects too, like I can now fall asleep in like a minute flat, and I didn't even think about that. There was subtle anxiety I've been carrying forever, to the point that I didn't understand that I was carrying it, I didn't think about it, it was just there, and so then have that just be gone so quickly. I could now just sleep. I can just lay down, close my eyes and I'm done. Anyways, yeah, it's been amazing and difficult. Sometimes the path still feels difficult, but, um, I can see now how I can truly. I can truly testify of atonement when they say your skins be your sins, be as scarlet, but they can be as white as snow. That feels like a platitude until you really experienced just coming to grips with the, the scarlet in your life, and and, and working at it, and and actually letting, uh, letting it all out in a way that there really is nothing left. Um, I do feel like they are as white as snow.

Micheal Slade:

Um well for me, uh, I I had. Um well for me, uh, I I had, for whatever reason, no one ever taught me to be this way, but I I've heard others, you know, I, I know I'm not alone Um, I was very much, because I was born and raised in the gospel Um, there was this it's like I, if I have the answer, if I know what's right, then there's really not a whole lot of excuse for me to do what's wrong. And so so I think I held myself to a standard that is a little unrealistic but also wasn't really healthy for me, because if it was almost like I needed to earn God's love and so I didn't quite understand how to that he could meet me Like, I logically knew that the atonement was for me, was for everybody, but it was like but you know better, so you've got to really get your act together to be perfect before God's like going to be okay with you really. And we tell ourselves these stories and we're not even necessarily conscious of them. You know cause? I knew what was true, but I was living as if, you know, I have to earn God's love and be perfect before I can have it, and that was true, and so I really struggled in the very beginning.

Micheal Slade:

One of the one of the people I was angry at was God. I felt like I had, you know, I'd done the right things, the checkboxes right, I had done all the things I was supposed to do to be a righteous person and to do my best, even though I wasn't perfect. And I'm, like I understand Cameron, you know, in a human weakness. He couldn't tell me. I could wrap my mind around how scary that must have been and you know, and he was, you know, his whole time. He was trying to fix it by himself and it wasn't ever going to work. But I could understand that. But from my perspective, I'm like you know, god, you knew I'm sitting here thinking I'm married to somebody that's honoring the promises that we've made and the understanding that we have and the covenants with God. And you could have told me, you could have shown me so much earlier. I mean that I do believe that God put that picture, or allowed that picture to be there that day because it was time. But I'm like, if you could do it, then why didn't you do it before? Why? Why did I have to wait 18 years? And I felt embarrassed. It felt so like I just felt like a fool, you know like, and God was part of that, and but at the same time, I knew I needed God, I needed, I knew I needed his peace and his comfort, and so I'm praying for that. But I'm angry at the same time, and it was really a difficult space of time for me where I had I really struggled to feel the spirit. I would have it in spurts.

Micheal Slade:

Um, I remember specifically one time, uh, where I was having it was a rough morning Um, we, I had dropped Cameron off at work and and I was traveling over to my office, uh, for that day and and I was, I think I was, I don't think I was praying, but all of a sudden I just felt an intense like, like I knew that my grandmother, who had passed away when I was in fifth grade, was in the car with me and I didn't know how to explain it, but I actually like said are you there? Like I said it out loud, I'm like are you, are you there? And I just knew it. I knew she was there and I knew that she was there to just comfort me and tell me that she loved me, because I felt really betrayed and left alone. And then Cameron was having, at the same time, these profound spiritual experiences of forgiveness and the atonement working in his life and his freedom, and he felt so good. And here I was like who hadn't done anything wrong, you know, hadn't done something like that, and I was struggling to feel the spirit and struggling to feel okay. And and now, in hindsight, I look back and I'm like God loved me so much that he sent her. He sent my grandma because I could accept that, and she was there for just a little bit. I didn't hear any words, I just felt her there and I knew she was there and I knew, she knew, she knew and she loved me and I was being supported that day and I I struggled for a good while, um, but it was interesting.

Micheal Slade:

I teach primary and I wasn't expecting it this day, but we were finishing a lesson and, uh, I was going to ask the children what song they loved and they wanted to sing and I was going to find it on my iPad and do the music. And the children asked for, um, the song risen by Shawna Edwards, but there was a point in it where and I don't know I still don't fully understand why, but this is what like just kickstarted me back into feeling God's love for me directly from him. And it's a quote in there. It says to bind up every broken heart, to conquer death and sin, and it's just, it's. The whole song is about the Savior in his life and for some reason I realized like that atonement that healed my husband was also the atonement to bind up my broken heart and it didn't separate him from me and I'm trying to put words to feelings that I don't know if I have exactly, but it didn't separate me from him, but it bound us together through Christ's love for us that he came to conquer um sin and our broken hearts, and and I just felt his, his love wash over me and I felt the savior and I still I will put that song on now anytime I just want to feel close and it immediately comes back, um, and I would sometimes just listen to it on repeat because it was a sure way to feel God's love for me and um, I know that that he loves us and that he is um desperately trying to reach us and to help us.

Micheal Slade:

Um, there's a an image of the lamb uh, it's a painting and then there's Christ in the background and he's not in focus but he's like running towards that lost sheep, and I heard in a recent class that I was in you know the meaning that this had for somebody about this person has somebody who's dealing with addiction and fear, you know, for that person in their life that's lost and hurting and that they can let go, because so many of the times we have people in our lives that we try to save and we can't. It can never be us and that it's okay to let go because Christ has them. I'm also being charged for just like that, just as the person who's struggling with sin in my pain I'm being charged for too. I'm being rescued because there is a big part of me that's like how do I protect myself from getting hurt again? I really, you know I wrestled with that, you know that that made me want to control my situation.

Micheal Slade:

But this, this reminder that I don't have to worry about protecting me I mean I get to be smart and make wise decisions and pray and ask for personal revelation to have you to, because we do, we do have responsibility for ourselves, but I I'm talking about the kind of like, how do I make sure Cameron doesn't hurt me again and I can't, I can never do that, um, but I know that that Christ is racing for him and Christ is racing for me and I think that was so meaningful for me.

Micheal Slade:

That's, you know, I, I and I. I think I had that faith with Cameron before that that Christ cared and was going after him, but I'm like he's also fiercely coming for me and so, even if something happens that hurts again, he's there and he's coming for me and I'm not alone and he's there to save and help me and to support me and love me and carry me through, and carry me through, and those are just, yeah, this has been a powerful experience in understanding the atonement in very different ways than I had ever had to understand it before.

Scott Brandley:

Cameron, your thoughts on the atonement. Yeah, yeah, I mean your thoughts on the atonement.

Cameron Berry:

Yeah, yeah, Heather mentioned I had some pretty cool spiritual experiences. I'll just mention one, probably the most powerful one that I had. And, yeah, so I actually have this reminder on my phone that I have had on my phone for many years actually to remind me to have like a good prayer and talk with Heavenly Father. And I even on the reminder, said, you know, I wanted to make sure I pray for courage and for, you know, the ability to do things I need to do. And it's interesting now that I look back at old journal entries and things like that, I can see how I was constantly reaching out um to to grapple with this problem and that I really wanted to be done.

Cameron Berry:

I did feel I never felt abandoned by God. I didn't have that experience. I just wasn't. That just wasn't my experience. I did feel like, um, I was confused. I felt like I didn't understand the reason for the trial. I didn't understand the reason for how things were shaking out and I felt, maybe, if any, if, if, if I was broken, it was definitely. I felt that it was my fault. So then it was like, well, what do I do now, you know? And so I? I felt very stuck, but, um, so I had this reminder, and I every day, but I saw the reminder If I hadn't prayed already, I would stop whatever I was doing and I would start to pray, and it was very standard and it was, dearly father, and thank you for this and please forgive me for that and this one morning, a few days after this, all Within that first week.

Cameron Berry:

It was the first week. Yeah, it was in the first week. It was the first week. Yeah, it was in the first week. I was at work and the reminder came up and so I was just like okay, it kind of stopped what I was doing, started to say the prayer and as soon as I said please forgive me I did not have time to say anything else I felt an amazing warmth and rush of feeling that like seized me. Warmth and rush of feeling that like seized me. I remember my mouth gaping open because I didn't, for a first few seconds I didn't understand what was happening. And then, when I had the realization of like, because I didn't even get to finish the sentence, I said please forgive me, that's all I said. And normally you know that was, that was dot dot, dot. That was mid sentence said, and normally you know that was dot dot, dot. That was mid-sentence.

Cameron Berry:

And I remember, just when I finally realized that I was feeling a feeling of what I believe was forgiveness, like I just was extremely overwhelmed. And then I also had I do remember having a thought soon after that like what I don't know if I can tell Heather this because like she's still in this part of like me, like saying, like telling her all these stuff that I'm doing, and like trying to be all honest and oh, it's okay, heather, I'm forgiven. God told me you can. Just, it's all good now. So I had that moment of like, well, I am telling truth, so I'm going to tell her this, but at the same time, how do I tell her in a way that doesn't feel like I'm obligating her to just not be mad or not not continue with you know any of her feelings and deal with those things in certain ways? So, anyways, it was just a very, it was a funny, it was a funny moment in that experience. It was complicated, complicated happiness is what we sometimes call that and anyways, it was amazing. And still to this day, when I talk about it, I can still feel it. I feel it now. I feel that feeling again. And, yeah, it was at that moment that I started really contemplating how much I don't think I really understood the atonement. I understood it cerebrally, I understood it maybe in smaller ways, but to actually get to grapple with it in such a powerful way really gave me a testimony that you really can be completely healed.

Cameron Berry:

I have not relapsed in those two and a half years since she saw that photo, and my feelings on the matter are different. It's not that there's pushes and pulls that aren't still there. They're still there. You've created neural pathways that could easily be traveled again, but the feeling of healing was so absolute and so quick, and Heather and I have talked a lot about this. I struggled with thinking how am I going to share this with people who have different experiences? Sometimes it takes them 10 years, sometimes they're just still struggling with it and they've been open and honest forever. Is there possibilities of still relapse? Yes, but I don't feel that that's my path. But I also don't want to be naive in thinking that things like that just simply can never happen again.

Micheal Slade:

It doesn't mean you drop the safeguards and the personal commitments Right.

Cameron Berry:

Safeguards and personal commitments. I keep them in place. And also Heather and I and especially lately we talk a lot about this of just how we didn't realize how we weren't acting very agentically in our life. I was trying to not hurt her, but really what I was doing was just trying to hide and not hurt myself. That was really the actual reason why I wasn't doing that and her reason to be safe wasn't to help our family, it was more actually to protect herself and like just just grappling with those like hidden, hidden things that we were doing and actually understanding that we we have abilities to make choices.

Cameron Berry:

I certainly have no desire for divorce she's expressed that same thing but to say that that was off the books, we understand that that's not just everybody's path and that's okay, and just recognizing that things are just different for everyone and how it shows up. But I can just say the atonement is just so much more a living example in my life, something that is so much more powerful than I realized Sometimes. I think we're in the country club rather than in the hospital, being that the church really is the hospital. We're either the patient or we're the doctor helping, you know, but we really shouldn't be in the country club where we're there because we think we're paying a due and we were owed some things and we've we're trying to keep up appearances to the people around us who also are the Joneses. You know, doing this and that I think I didn't realize how much of the country club I had been. I didn't think I was and yeah, it was amazing to just be able to move through that into a new space.

Scott Brandley:

Michael, do you have any thoughts on this?

Heather Berry:

No, no, I'm just really impressed on the experience and um just gratefully, the opportunity to share this with you or to be shared with me yeah, it takes a lot of courage to get on and share this experience.

Scott Brandley:

What, what was that? How did you feel when you decided to do that, to share it publicly?

Micheal Slade:

oh, well, it was interesting early on, um, when we realized that we were healing and and not just like we weren't just struggling and upset and muddling through, like we were actually feeling, like like we had leveled up and were, even though there were some really hard times and we just felt like like we were figuring something out that we couldn't quite put a finger on just yet, but that if we, if we could figure this out, then there was something we could share with others, because you know it's just, because you know it's just, it's too rampant in our world today. This is, you know, cameron felt he knew that there were problems, but it's very lonely. You feel like you're the only one that's dealing with this. You know you sit in church on Sunday and it's like, yeah, I'm the one that's, you know, the gross person or whatever name. I don't want to put labels on it, but you know you said yourself that you had like I'm a monster and you know, and as we counseled with our bishop and talked about it, like this is a huge, huge problem in the faith.

Micheal Slade:

I think it's not just our faith but any religious community where you have these morals and standards and then you throw in something like pornography that's meant to entice and entrap you. It is meant to be tempting because of how God created us to be, sexuality is a good thing, and Satan just uses these pulls to get us to act outside of our integrity. And so, and then you throw shame in because now I've sinned, now I've done something wrong, now I'm not worthy. And the messaging you know that that Satan twists like these truths, that he just twists so that you feel trapped and you feel bad and you feel like you know you're, you're the scum of the earth. It's just a rampant problem, you know, especially for our young people.

Micheal Slade:

And so when we realized that there was hope and that there was healing and that people didn't have to suffer and hurt and live with this and just tolerate subpar or staying in an addiction or staying miserable and unhappy because you've been hurt Like we, just how can we share this? How can we? How can we help others with this? And I remember I think we were just laying in bed one day. I'm like, I think I said it out loud, I'm like we should write a book Like this is something that we need to share. But we didn't know what it looked like yet. And then you had an experience in Arizona, where you were sharing it publicly for the first time.

Cameron Berry:

Oh yeah, like, like, like, just know about me. This is not me. I'm like, again being a hider. I'm also kind of aloof person. I I'm I'm perfectly warm and kind person to talk to and a good friend, but I'm not very outgoing, I'm introverted and and this, this, uh, talking about this, especially at first, was, was extremely uncomfortable and difficult because my, the, the core of me, was so used to just like you didn't see that I had a mask that you just didn't didn't see.

Cameron Berry:

And so, um, yeah, we were, we were at a little conference that we have that we did that, we did with the mindset stuff we were doing and I decided to like there, just tell a group of people and these were all people who were, some knew me pretty well, some didn't, but anyways, I explained our situation and I also explained the joy and the freedom, that of having been able to be this free and and and doing that was very helpful to help kind of break that, break that mold and help me recognize because, especially, like Heather said, like it's just so rampant, like, like it feels like there's very few people, if any, that aren't touched by it in some way, like there's very few people, if any that aren't touched by it in some way, and we weren't seeing a lot of stories exactly like ours, and I think, even if your situation is different, there were a lot of things that we could help with and at least even if it's just hearing our story might help inspire you to be something different or to pick a different path, or to try to pick up where you are right now and do something different.

Heather Berry:

I wanted to be a part of that and I could feel that so, yeah, what, what, what advice would you give to a couple that maybe went was at that stage where you were at two and a half years ago, just, you know, finding this out and just trying to get through that beginning Difficult, yeah, disclosure, what. What advice would you give a couple that's going through that?

Cameron Berry:

I would say, um, I would say that the first thing I would hope they could feel, at least, is that life can begin right now. I think there's so many times in our life that you can look back and see this. If you have children, you know that it feels like you just never lived your life without children. You couldn't imagine these spirits and these personalities not to be in your life anymore. So it feels like life started back then. So a lot of times I think back to it feels like my life started at marriage, right, like I can't imagine not being with her.

Cameron Berry:

I can feel now again that same feeling of things starting again. You really can pick up exactly where you are now. I don't care how far down, how difficult you're feeling things. You can have a new life now.

Micheal Slade:

I've heard it described. You know, when you find out something like this or there's deception on some level, that marriage is over and it doesn't mean divorce. It just means that that marriage that you thought you had, that you were building based on the understanding that you had, is gone, and it is gone forever. So you can walk away or you can build a new one.

Cameron Berry:

And it takes a reframing to understand, like you said, that the marriage is gone. But it's something different and new. It's metamorphosized into the butterfly that was a caterpillar before.

Micheal Slade:

I think, a piece of advice. It's so easy to go into regret what if? What if it just didn't happen this way? What if Cameron had just told me when we were engaged and I knew the whole time, like then, then I could at least not have been lied to. And you know, and we want to go back to, like the what ifs and there's no what if that will ever, that will ever make those things come true. You know what is. And coming to terms with that and looking forward with hope and looking to create something, looking for it, looking at the opposition as an opportunity and not something that you know is hurting you, something for an opportunity to grow and become better and to become more refined I think that would be. My advice is to try and look forward with hope and to not try and look to the past. But what can you build now? And I think, too, being a safe space as best you can.

Micheal Slade:

It isn't easy, and I wasn't always a safe space. I had my moments, but I tried really hard to understand, to ask questions, to understand, so I could I could, um have more empathy for where he was coming from. And then, and then, looking inward, where have I contributed to dysfunction in our marriage? Where have I? Um played a part in what's going on right now? And how am I playing a part in, in, in my? Am I helping with his recovery and healing or am I, am I tearing it apart because I don't know how to manage myself?

Micheal Slade:

Um, and so you know, I, I it is one of the hardest things in the world to to to know that somebody you love and trusted, and like I, literally, you know this was in the very beginning.

Micheal Slade:

I said, you know, if somebody had pointed a gun at my head and said, is your husband doing this? I would have you know if, if you're wrong, I'm like I would have felt super confident saying, nope, that's not a problem for us. And I know that, um, and it's like I said before, it's whiplash and it's hard, and I don't mean to simplify it in any way whatsoever. But to vilify the person that you care about, if you want it to work, if you want your marriage to be healed, if you don't want to give up, to turn the other person into a villain and wait for them to make everything right again, is not a good way to proceed. To focus on your own healing and how you can become a more supportive, loving partner, to walk with somebody through a very hard thing and do your best to not make this be about you.

Micheal Slade:

Because it isn't, it never is. I could have been. You know women go through all the emotions of you know, if I were prettier, if I were skinnier, if I were younger, whatever it is, you know he could be married to that person. You know that you think if you were, and it would still be a problem, because it's not about you, it's about them trying to fix something that's wrong inside of themselves. And so to do your best to identify the meaning you're putting on someone else's action what does it mean about you and to figure out, like to really study that and to put light on it, to shed light on that so that you can remember what's actually true, because these are just lies that we tell ourselves.

Cameron Berry:

And I think kind of like just a summary, like I think, now that I'm thinking about it, the two things I would really really tell somebody who's just beginning this process and struggling is to do your best to remove shame and second, take full responsibility, personal responsibility, and we called it the principle of irregardless Like again, if I took that, I decided to take that challenge, I decided it myself to say if I felt something, if I remembered something that was difficult, that I didn't want to say, I was going to say it. But that was because I decided to take that responsibility. And I also said I could not in my mind, I could not wait until she was safe, like there's couth right, like you don't, you don't you, there is a, there is proper space that you need to do. But but at the same time, whether or not she was okay with it, like I had to, I had to take that stand and just say no, she deserves the truth, all of it.

Cameron Berry:

Well, and you deserve healing too, not to be hung up because I can't tolerate the truth, not to be hung up because I can't tolerate the truth, and so taking that, the taking away the shame, and and and really working with, with full responsibility, not trying to control somebody else or to manipulate them to, to, to make sure that you felt safe. It really was important taking those two things into account, okay, wow.

Heather Berry:

Thank you.

Scott Brandley:

This has been incredible. There's so much wisdom, so much insight, inspiration that I've just felt from you guys and hearing your experience. I did not see this coming from what I thought we were going to get on the podcast. It's incredible. I mean, it is incredible that you've been able to learn these lessons through such a difficult trial, and it's truly inspiring. Thank you for being willing to share it. I honestly feel like this is going to help a lot of people.

Cameron Berry:

Yeah.

Scott Brandley:

And it almost feels like this is the beginning of your journey. Like you, this is something you could. You could continue to do to help people in the future as well.

Micheal Slade:

I hope so. Yes, that's our hope. We uh oh gosh, it's been two, almost two years ago no, not quite, but we Gosh, it's been almost two years ago no, not quite. But we started a podcast where we shared our story and literally it's just us in the car because we've got a busy life and we were both the days that I would travel over and commute with him to work. We would just record our story and talk about these principles in the car. So we've started, yeah, but you're right, principles in the car. So we've we've started yet, but I, you're right, Like this really is the beginning of something, um, that we I don't think we even understand what it is yet, but but there's a world of people hurting and feeling really alone and stuck and, um, and if we can help them feel less alone and and share the principles that helped us find healing, I know that marriages can be saved and families can be preserved and the whole purpose.

Micheal Slade:

I mean this. This really is a gift, Like life is a gift. It's not, I think. So much of the time we think that if I just live righteously enough, then bad things won't happen and that's success, and it's like, no, we're here to learn. We're here to learn and grow, and that includes the trials and hardships that, like sometimes, we just don't want to have to accept or deal with. I know I personally have struggled with that. Can I just be righteous enough to have certain things not happen? But if we can turn those things around and and make them, it will be so much more worth the pain and struggle. If I, if, if something we do or say can help somebody else, um, and family and a family can be preserved, especially when, when both people desperately want it and they just don't know how to do it.

Heather Berry:

Yeah.

Scott Brandley:

Yeah, wow.

Cameron Berry:

We're ready for a final thought. I actually did have something, scott okay.

Cameron Berry:

Yeah, this is kind of the point in the show where we ask you if you have any final thoughts and, michael, I mean if you have anything to share too, like you're welcome to share too you know what I one of the biggest things that I've learned from this that every time I pray about what do I share with people, it keeps coming back to this that we believe in a plan. Heavenly Father has a plan for us, right? We believe in that. We also believe in a malevolent force that knows this plan, and if I was this malevolent force, I would pick the most important things in this plan to mess with.

Cameron Berry:

And sexuality is messed with, probably one of the hardest things in this planet. We know that. You can see it, it's obvious, and so, whatever I pray about what to share with people, I just keep feeling how to express to people how amazing, beautiful and wonderful sexuality is, and I think we're living beneath it, to be honest, in every direction. And one of the things to be able to be so open with Heather and I, we've really reconnected in ways sexually even that have just been really amazing and seeing how healing and beautiful this very sacred act is between man and wife, and I really want to share that with the world. This is amazing, this is beautiful and wonderful and it should be something that we have in our lives and if we can manage it, it can be a crowning glory in this relationship that we have in marriage.

Micheal Slade:

No, I agree it's a very sensitive subject. I think, like Cameron said, it's been. I think because, like Cameron said it's been, satan has really meddled with it and it's become a vice and a and it's something to come between husband and wife. It's it's been misused in in such hurtful ways. But you know, I just can I can testify to what he's saying that when we look for God's purpose and meaning in giving us gifts like this, the reward is so rich and such a blessing the gift of sexuality, not to divide us, which is often what happens inside of marriage, but to unify us and to make us stronger.

Micheal Slade:

And I think it's a glimpse of eternity.

Micheal Slade:

I think it's a glimpse of something powerful.

Micheal Slade:

I mean, it's the only God-like power we have here, with procreation right, and I think he's giving us this small little glimpse of what it's like to be like him, giving us this small little glimpse of what it's like to be like him, and it's a powerful gift and we see how, because it's been, it has a powerful way to destroy when used inappropriately, and a powerful way to build and create life, and not just, not just with, you know, having children and birth and all those things, but to create life and energy in your relationship and and just in in your way of it's just so expanding for, for a couple, and I think it's like I think God says that's why it's so important that it remains inside of the bounds of marriage, because it's this incredible tool that God's given us and if it's misused it can it can really cause problems, and so it's one of those things that I know as being on the other side of it, where I actually it was hard.

Micheal Slade:

For me it was not something I felt was a gift. It was something that was difficult because just for all the meanings that we place behind these things, but to have come to the other side and to see the beautiful gift that it is, I just know that if couples can work towards that and put aside the meanings that we've put on sex and look at it as something that's helping us become more like our father in heaven and to use to help us be one in mind and heart and purpose, the rewards of it are above and beyond what we can understand. And you know, I'm not even going to say we understand these things.

Micheal Slade:

We're still learning and we're just understanding the importance of it, but it's incredible, and not a surprise that Satan attacks it the way that he does.

Cameron Berry:

And it just feels like we keep getting like 10, 10 warnings, the one hallelujah, and so what I feel like, cause I want more hallelujah.

Heather Berry:

Yeah, it's awesome, thank you.

Scott Brandley:

Yeah, wow, this has been awesome. Thank you again for being on the show. Any final thoughts? Is that any last things you want to say?

Micheal Slade:

Just that.

Micheal Slade:

Yeah, we, we prepared a little like PDF, just a little tool, a process that Cameron and I have both used and was refined really through this process of helping to identify, you know, the things that are keeping us stuck, the thoughts, the beliefs that are inside of our, the meanings that we're placing on, things that trip us up, and how to walk through it and remember what's true.

Micheal Slade:

A lot of these things just kind of go under the surface, they're unconscious, we don't realize we're doing them. But to put consciousness to them, to see them, to shed light on some of the lies that we're telling ourselves and to remember who we are, because we are divine children of God, we are here for a purpose and he loves us and he knows us by name, and if we can remember who we are, we can do a whole lot better while we're here. And so this PDF is just a few pages, that walks, there's a journal page and it walks you through like a five-step little exercise that will help shed light and truth on some darkness when you're struggling, and so we'll send you the link to access that, and it's just something we wanted to share. That's been very meaningful and helpful to us.

Cameron Berry:

Yeah, it's one of those things that we realized that there's a lot of ways to try to cope with with feelings in our life. But this is this was a really cool tool to kind of help you find where are those feelings coming from. And, like I said before, when I was young I didn't realize how much I was masking, and this type of tool we've used that's helped me kind of go back to those memories and say, oh yeah, that's kind of where I've was starting to make these, these beliefs, and then help me work on them. So, yeah, it's, it's, it's an amazing awesome.

Scott Brandley:

How did you, how did you come up with it?

Micheal Slade:

Um, I have, uh, I mean, I trained.

Micheal Slade:

I'm a coach, I've trained for the past nearly decade and helping people walk through, uh, walk through processes similar to this.

Micheal Slade:

So I've certified in a technique called belief breakthrough and, as I studied my own breakthroughs and what really helped me feel the full power of the atonement to learn the lessons that I needed to learn, I was able to refine the process to help it be something that would help really stick and help help you remember who you are a little bit more powerfully.

Micheal Slade:

And so it's. It's basically a baby that's been, you know, formulating for the past decade and that I've been practicing, you know, myself, on myself and with my clients and in this process that Cameron and I have gone through over the past several years has really helped to refine it. And so it's one you know we're right now in the process of writing a book to go more in depth about it, so we're hoping to get that released before the end of the year just something that we've practiced and experienced for ourselves, and and I've just studied and, and and and, uh, it's just morphed as we've had life experience, uh, and and, honestly, it's just it's a gift from God and none of it is, it's not ours. These are principles and truths that God, um God, has given us, and so we were just kind of we're the organizers a little bit into something that's concrete, that we can just walk through, walk ourselves through or help somebody else through.

Scott Brandley:

That's awesome and it feels like a book is necessary. I can totally see it, I mean even just from the things you've shared here, and I'm sure this is just a piece of of all of the wisdom and insights that you've put together. So I'm excited when, when you launch your book, reach back out, we'll have you back on the podcast cool, we will thank you. Yeah, yeah awesome, mike michael. Any any last thoughts or comments?

Heather Berry:

you know, I talk a lot to a lot of my clients and just say that this trials in our life could be a speed bump or a roadblock and that ultimately, it's their decision. Yep, it is. So which one of those things is it going to be?

Micheal Slade:

That's the real power.

Heather Berry:

And good for you guys for good for you guys for doing the speed bump.

Scott Brandley:

Thank you, when I was a bishop I called it. You can hit a pothole or you can go into a canyon. It's way easier to get out of a pothole than out of a canyon.

Micheal Slade:

That is for sure.

Scott Brandley:

Awesome. Thanks again, guys, for being on. We really appreciate it, and thanks Michael for coming and hanging out as my co-host, and thanks everyone for tuning in. Hopefully you've got some really good insights and inspiration from Cameron and Heather today, and if you know anyone that is struggling with pornography or anything like this, this is a great podcast to be able to share with them. Go, hit that share button, do your five second missionary work and let's let's save some marriages, let's bring some people closer together through a difficult thing, rather than have it separate. Um, and if you have a story that you'd like to share, go to latterdaylightscom. Let's have you on the show. And thanks again for tuning in and we'll see you next week for another episode of Latter-day Lights. Until then, take care, bye-bye.

People on this episode

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Scott Brandley

Host
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Alisha Coakley

Co-host