LDS Podcast "Latter-Day Lights" - Inspirational LDS Stories

Repentance & Forgiveness with Dave Higham & Kellen Winslow (Faith to Stay Part 3 of 5) - Latter-Day Lights

• Scott Brandley and Alisha Coakley

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When guilt feels heavier than hope, can forgiveness still rewrite our story?

Episode 3 of our 5-part miniseries "Faith to Stay" tackles “Repentance & Forgiveness”—a burning topic in Latter-Day Lights host & founder Scott Brandley’s new book about navigating life’s fiercest spiritual storms. How are repentance and forgiveness interconnected, and how do we walk through them to achieve lasting peace?

This Sunday, we welcome back prison therapist Kellen Winslow and excommunicated bishop Dave Higham. With the overarching testimony that “repentance isn’t punishment; rather, it’s relief,” they compare courtroom justice to eternal mercy, swap stories of self-forgiveness, and reveal how seeing people in the same way God sees them can turn even the most "unforgivable" actions into miracles of compassion.

If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re too far gone—or have struggled to forgive someone who seems beyond reach—tune in as we navigate these two sides of the same coin, and discover why every new day is an invitation to begin again.

*** Please SHARE Dave and Kellen's stories and help us spread hope and light to others. ***

To WATCH: this episode, visit: https://youtu.be/GoPQtfoFEo4

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To READ Scott’s book “Faith to Stay,” visit: https://www.faithtostay.com/

To WATCH Dave's episode, visit: https://youtu.be/hfMj1JDSgLg

To WATCH Kellen's episode, visit: https://youtu.be/BXFYBqDQAfg

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Also, if you have a faith-promoting or inspiring story, or know someone who does, please let us know by going to https://www.latterdaylights.com and reaching out to us.

Scott Brandley:

Hey everyone. I'm Scott Brandley.

Scott Brandley:

And I'm Alisha Coakley. Every member of the church has a story to share, one that can instill faith, invite growth and inspire others.

Scott Brandley:

On today's episode, we're going to discuss the importance of repentance and forgiveness and how we can use these gifts to live a more Christ-like life. Welcome to Latter-day Lights. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Latter-day Lights. We're so glad that you're here with us today, and we have a really special treat for you today. This is actually the third part of a special five-part series that I'm doing to kick off my brand new book, faith to Stay, and today's topic is actually going to be related to one of the things I talk about in the book, which is repentance and forgiveness, and so I've asked two of our previous guests to come back on the show, and I'd like to welcome back Kellen Winslow and Dave Haim. Welcome back, guys, it's good to be back.

Scott Brandley:

And, of course, I'd like to welcome Alisha, my co-host, back to the show too. I do feel like guests.

Alisha Coakley:

Lately I have been kind of in and out and we've had some co-guest hosts filling up my spots for me, so it does feel a little like I'm rejoining.

Scott Brandley:

Yeah Well, we're glad you're all here. So this is kind of a different format. Usually we have people come on and share their stories, but as part of this series, I'm actually having a discussion about different topics, and so today we're talking about repentance and forgiveness, and the reason why I brought Kellen and Dave back on is because both of their podcasts that they've done previously were related to those topics, and they were incredibly good podcasts, right, Alisha? Like wouldn't you say?

Alisha Coakley:

Oh my gosh, some of my favorites, like I mean Kellen, you know, he's Kellen's in my ward, kellen's in the Bishop Reckonard ward and he's just, which I'm actually sad about, because I loved you so much as a Sunday school teacher I was like dang it, now he's just gonna be an old bishop guy actually, I actually really miss that calling.

Kellen Winslow:

It was really fun to teach.

Alisha Coakley:

We really miss having you but I just I loved hearing from you and getting like your backstory and hearing what you went through. Um, you know both with with your dad, and then also just like the amazing career that you have right now working in the essentially the system with um, you know pedophiles and and um, you know people who have had, like these, really serious sins and and um, just like your perspective from, that really helped me to have more Christlike love for people who seem to be the big monsters in life, right. And then Dave, oh my gosh, our pre-show conversation was two hours. Did we talk for two hours on the phone or something like that? It was like insane. I mean, it was just wonderful conversation.

Alisha Coakley:

I loved your perspective and from from being, you know, um, I don't want to give a lot of spoilers and stuff because you guys should just go watch both of their episodes if you haven't seen it but just from your process of being in the bishopric and then going through excommunication and working your way back to the church now and and just the hardships that have happened there and some of the unfairness and and just the gosh, the way that you're able to forgive right, while going through repentance too, is just mind blowing and I love what you're doing and how you're just really trying to find that one sheep, you know, trying to find the people who really need to be welcomed back and really need to have that love and forgiveness back.

Dave Higham:

So guys, let's turn that around. Really, I need to forgive. I need to repent more than I need to forgive others, but I got to forgive others, but you know it all.

Alisha Coakley:

I think it's all important. So we're going to talk about all the things today.

Scott Brandley:

Yeah, and I agree, I think so. One of the things I talk about in my book is that repentance and forgiveness are two sides of the same coin and you never know what, day by day, which side of the coin is going to come up right, some days we're going to need to forgive and some days we're going to need to repent, and maybe some days we got to do both right, yeah, but you never know what side of the coin that's going to come up on. So they they're definitely related for sure.

Kellen Winslow:

Yeah, I love that analogy in your book, by the way. I read that part and I was like yeah, I started I. I hope it's okay, but I use that analogy with some of my groups, so oh, yeah.

Scott Brandley:

Well, you guys both influenced me while I was writing my book, and so I really appreciate your insights as well. So let's just kind of jump right in. So I'm just going to throw out a couple different questions and let's kind of see where it goes. So my first one is why do you think repentance is important and not just like the cookie cutter answer, so that we can live with God again? Why do you think it's important? Either in your life or in the lives, for example, kellen, maybe the lives of some of the people you work with? Why is repentance so important?

Kellen Winslow:

work with. Why is repentance so important? Man, you're just jumping right into it, huh, you know. First off, obviously I don't go a lot in depth with gospel topics in my groups, but that's basically what therapy is is repentance. It's a non-religious way of repenting, I would say, and so my job would be meaningless if repentance wasn't possible.

Kellen Winslow:

It became really clear to me that it was the atonement of Jesus Christ that was allowing these people to change, and they don't necessarily have a knowledge of the atonement, so you don't even need to have a knowledge of it to be blessed by it, and it's essential for every part of our life, and so being immersed in a population that is in such a desperate need of it made the contrast very clear to me, and it wasn't necessarily something I was expecting or even really wanting to learn, but it just became so blatantly obvious that, uh, everything in the world works because we're we're able to repent, and we're able to change, and we're able to be forgiven for the things that we've done to others and forgive others for the things that they've done to us. So, um, I don't know if you have a follow-up question, but it's very clear in my line of work, because there's no alternative um without it.

Scott Brandley:

So Okay, Dave Alisha thoughts on that ladies first.

Alisha Coakley:

Oh, you know, I, I think for me, um, I feel like repentance for me really frees me right, like it really helps me to not get in my head. And I mean, I'm not saying that this is just women, but I know that women in general, we tend to overanalyze, overthink, we tend to connect everything together all the time. So I feel like we're always in a state of thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, you know, and on top of that then we're feeling, and then we're thinking about our feelings and then we're feeling what we're thinking. It's just like this unending process of trying to pick apart every little thing and when you don't have repentance, I it feels to me like it just overloads the system. You know what I mean, because we're constantly reliving over and over and over again in the sin or whatever it is, and whether it's I don't want to go into forgiveness just yet, just yet, but, um, regardless of which side of repentance we're on, whether we're on the side where we're repenting because of something that we've done or caused or whatever, or we're trying to see repentance in another person and we're trying to extend forgiveness for them I think the most important thing is that we just are open to it, um, and that we understand that, one, it's a process, right, like it's going to take time to get through Um, and two, that we continually strive for it, uh, in, even like the smallest things, right, um, I think in my experience it's just been one of those things where, like, when I can get through repentance, I no longer have that constant barrage of thoughts in my head over and over again about how bad I was or how much shame I carry, or how I should have done better, or how I was like missing the bar again or whatever it is, and so that I, just from a woman's perspective, I think is like one of the many reasons why it's so important for us to repent.

Alisha Coakley:

We don't drive ourselves crazy, you know, and that's kind of service level, right, but that's just one of the things that I've noticed with repentance.

Scott Brandley:

Okay, dave, thoughts, I would say that one of the things I've noticed with repentance. Okay, Dave thoughts.

Dave Higham:

I would say that in answering that question I just will look back at my own experience. Five years ago I was excommunicated and for the past five years I have not had the opportunity to get back into the church until I had been considered repentant enough. So for the last five years, as I think about the experiences I've had and where my life has come along those five years, it's very hard in some ways to speak to it. I was telling this to a friend yesterday morning from years ago. It's kind of hard to speak to just how much of a blessing it is, because you don't want to come across as insensitive to those who might be hurting because of me. But what an incredible ride this has been, with the downs and the ups and everything.

Dave Higham:

But what I have developed out of that is a perspective towards who I am, who my relationship is to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and what Christ has done for me, as well as what it has done in so many other aspects of my life.

Dave Higham:

It's just a growth opportunity in so many ways. I'm not saying I'm done growing. I'm not saying I'm perfect or anything like that. I've got a long ways to go but I sure like what it's done for me over the past five years as far as a growth for my perspective on things, how I see the gospel, how I see the church, how I see my responsibility in who I am and what I do. And so I would say that's why it's important for me is for what it has given me. Going through that process to the sometimes a joke that I went through the doctor program on it, but but I'm very grateful for as hard as the experiences were and as sad as I am for some of those who might still be hurting. I am so very thankful for the experiences that I've been given.

Scott Brandley:

Yeah.

Alisha Coakley:

Yeah, I have to say, one of the things, too, that I've noticed is like in when I'm, when I'm repenting and I truly understand what it is I did wrong. It helps me to have a better understanding of other people who do other things wrong, whether they're like the same thing or whatever else.

Alisha Coakley:

it's all of a sudden like oh, I get it, you know it's so easy to judge people and to be like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that you did that, I would never do that, I would never. And we just we never know which slope is slipperiest for us until we know right. And so I think sometimes when you, when you experience that hardship and you're like, oh my gosh, like you, you hit your own rock bottom all of a sudden. It kind of gives you a greater perspective of what other people are going through and and then you do things like not that you necessarily condone the behavior, but you understand the person more, you can have a little more compassion on them.

Alisha Coakley:

I know that was one of one of my big things and and Kellen's episode actually helped me with it too but just with experience experiencing sexual abuse when I was, when I was a child, I feel like through my own repentance of different things, I understood then how trauma can really affect a person's decision to sin Right, and I have been able to forgive my abusers and genuinely like want them to have healing and why I want them to have growth and I want them, you know, like I'm not at that place where I'm like wishing that they were just executed or, you know kicked off.

Alisha Coakley:

You know kicked off the American continent and sent to some hot jungle with lots of bugs and you know whatever else. I feel like it's just really helped me to be able to have more of an understanding and compassion towards, towards people and and for me not to have such a big head and think I'm above all, that I'm above being tempted or I'm above you know what I mean. It's like oh yeah, I know, I'm like I'm much more aware of where satan could get me nowadays, you know, and I'm I better stay away from that because I know that's one of my slopes you know.

Scott Brandley:

Yeah, well, I think that's a good transition, because you talked a little bit about forgiveness, Alisha.

Scott Brandley:

How does repentance and forgiveness work together, especially when, dave, I think about your situation a lot because when we aired our episode, there were a lot of people that made comments that were really appreciative of you having the guts to come out and get on a podcast and talk about it for one. Yeah, and there were a lot of people that could relate to it, especially people that had been excommunicated or disfellowshipped. They, they could feel a lot of the struggles that you were feeling on the one side, um, and the and the repentance piece of it, but then on the other side, we also got people that, like, wrote us and told us like you need to take that off, you know, like he hurt a lot of people, and so on your side, it's unique because on the one side, there is repentance because of choices that were made, but then also there's people that are incredibly hurt and angry and mad, and so it's weird because there almost needs to be forgiveness from you because of how they're treating you.

Alisha Coakley:

Right.

Scott Brandley:

Right, Like it's like this weird thing going on. I don't know Any thoughts on that, Dave. There's like repentance and forgiveness at the same time.

Dave Higham:

One of the great blessings that comes from an experience like I've been through is you more clearly understand what it's like to not forgive and to judge because of what you feel.

Dave Higham:

To judge because of what you feel, and what that has done for me is it's made me more keenly aware of when I start leading, maybe, down that line, if my line of thinking starts going that way towards somebody. I know how that feels for somebody else. I know how damaging that can be, how hurtful it can be and how it just doesn't help. And so from my perspective, it's really helped me a lot to be far less judgmental of others and to forgive others, because you just realize that you don't know everything. You don't know the whole story necessarily. You don't know what. You just don't have necessarily. I don't have the full picture of somebody else, so how dare I judge them and how dare I try and put them through something like what I have experienced? And so I don't want to ever do that to anybody. I try hard to not be judgmental of anybody, because I have felt just how much of a burden that is, especially if I'm going to try and be Christ-like.

Scott Brandley:

Yeah, mm-hmm, yeah. Well, kellen, you're kind of in an interesting boat too, because you're dealing with people that have done horrific things and you have to hear that. Or, like you're saying, I think you said, sometimes you have to watch videos and things that are damaging to your spirit. How does forgiveness work in your world?

Kellen Winslow:

spirit. How do you, how does forgiveness work in your world? Oh, uh, when you asked that question, I was like I there's a lot, there's a lot that I want to say about this. So, um, I don't even know where to begin. Honestly, when I took this job on, I was not prepared to grapple with some of the questions that I now have to grapple with.

Kellen Winslow:

Things like what is justice? You know, for example, what is justice? So we have a person who committed a pretty heinous crime and let's say they get 20 years in prison and they finish their prison sentence. Is that justice? Like, did that magically make the harm go away? Or did that like what is a just punishment, make the harm go away? Or did that like what is a just punishment or what is what is? And if we want to talk about mercy, like, is that fair for someone who was harmed in such a horrific way for this person to be shown mercy in some way? And so I've been grappling with these questions of like what? What is the difference between temporal and eternal justice? And how do I can kind of how can I kind of bring a balance between those two things in my job, because these guys have technically completed their sentence. They're not in prison anymore, they're not inmates, they're citizens, but they are in a confined treatment facility because of the decisions they made and because the state of Texas decided to put them there. And so I think about, like certain clients, for example, they committed their crimes 30 years ago and, because of the things that they did, some of their victims have taken their own lives, or some of their victims' parents took their own lives, or whatever it might be, and so they've complete their sentence. They've outlived the victim that that they created. Like how is, how is that a just thing, you know? How is that fair, you know? And so I?

Kellen Winslow:

I did not know how to comprehend this, but as soon as I started to see, kind of. So there's this really interesting poem by TS Eliot. It's called Little Getting. I just want to read four lines. It's like 700 lines, so I'm not going to read the whole thing, but there are four lines I want to read. Okay, ts Eliot, little Getting, we shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.

Kellen Winslow:

Okay, so this idea of repentance and this idea of forgiveness is a cycle, and where you start and where the cycle ends is the same exact place, but you're just seeing it with a new lens and you're going to go through that cycle a million different times. You're going to think, man, I thought I repented of this. But now you see it from a new angle and you're like now I got to repent about this. Or, man, I thought I forgave this person for what they did. And now it's starting to feel this way again and you see it with a new lens. And so now you find new things that you have to repent of and or forgive somebody of.

Kellen Winslow:

And then there's also the third dynamic of like forgiving yourself for things that you've done. You know that's something that my clients have a really hard time with, because these aren't just heartless people who did horrible things and they're sitting there like you know this is. You know I'm the victim here. You know these are men who did horrible things and understand that they did these things and are living with the consequences of that. None of my clients woke up when they were eight years old and said I want to be a sex offender one day.

Kellen Winslow:

There are millions of things that have happened that have pushed them in this direction, and I actually had. I'm really grateful that you guys reached out to me, because I was in a group today with 12 men earlier today and I knew that I was going to be in the podcast, and so I asked them. I said, look, I'm going to be speaking about you guys later today, about I didn't say repentance, because I don't want to get religious, but about healing and about forgiveness. So, guys, just tell me what, what do you want me to say? And kind of the overall theme that they kept coming to was I don't know if I deserve forgiveness, I don't know if I'm worthy of it, not even just from the person that I victimized, but like myself. How can I ever come to forgive myself for the things that I've done? Because they recognize what has happened. And so do you understand now, like the complexity of this relationship, that, like repentance and forgiveness isn't just like an event, it doesn't happen on like a Tuesday night, one day, and it's just like done. It's a consistent pattern of small changes that you're making here and small forgiveness that you're giving here, and it's a consistent pattern of becoming better than you were yesterday, even if that's a very small increase and a very small change.

Kellen Winslow:

And these guys are doing that. I'm telling you, they are men who are trying to change their lives. They feel horrible for what they did and at the end of the day they're men who are trying to better their life. And it takes changing their nature, but it also takes forgiving themselves for the things that they did. And they may never hear the words I forgive you from the victim. In fact, it's illegal for them to even have contact, so that's never going to happen, and so it's a very tricky situation to kind of try to navigate, especially from a treatment and then also from a religious standpoint. It's very difficult, but it gives me a lot of appreciation for the atonement, because that's the only way that these things make sense in the end, you know. So.

Scott Brandley:

Interesting. Well, and with you being a member of the church and having that, that eternal perspective, like, do you ever think or want to say to them you are forgiven, you are good enough?

Kellen Winslow:

Absolutely. I wanted to say it today because my clients were sitting there, One of my favorite clients that I've been working with for the longest time. He's sitting there and he's just saying my, you know the victims I created. They're dead. They took their own lives. How am I ever going to pay this debt that I have to them? And I wanted so badly to be like there is a plan for you, brother. You know, there is a plan for you. The Lord hasn't forgotten this thing that happened. And the Lord is just as much as he's aware of the harm you've caused. He's he's aware of a path to healing. And if we could just get you there, you know, but I obviously I can't say that in treatment, you know, but I just want so badly to become a missionary in those moments and just preach to them the miracle of forgiveness.

Scott Brandley:

You know yeah, wow, Alisha, do you have any thoughts about forgiveness?

Alisha Coakley:

I mean, I know, you know you had some difficult things happen yeah, you know, when I, when kellen was speaking, I was thinking about how, uh, you know, you were talking about the complexity of it. And I think when you, when you read the scriptures, they they talk about repent daily, repent often, repent all the time, like you're always in a state of repentance and forgiveness and stuff like that, right, and I think that, um, one of the reasons why is because we are so complex as children of God, right, like we are such divine creatures that we're not just going to be some simple formula. I'm like, oh, check, mark, this is done. And so, even even with, like, the years and years that I've, um spent working on just my own trauma and stuff like that from the past, last week it's matters, and not even it was probably four days ago, five days ago, I had this, um, john and I were having this really, just really in-depth conversation about how, even today, even though I have all this knowledge, I know what my triggers are, I know that I'm safe, I know all of this kind of stuff I still have these moments where I am affected by the trauma and it. It it makes me do or not do things that I should or shouldn't do, if that makes sense, right, like, like it's like this weird, like I'm like that's so stupid. Why am I doing that? Or why am I not doing this, um, and I know why, but it's still affecting my behaviors, you know, and it just it's so frustrating, right and, and in this conversation I all of a sudden, for the very first time in 37 years that seems crazy In 37 years I realized I still have some hurt that I didn't address.

Alisha Coakley:

I kind of broke down and I realized, as much as I love and trust Heavenly Father I'm, I think I still have to forgive him for not protecting me as a child, you know, and I'm like, oh my gosh, like where did that come from?

Alisha Coakley:

Because I never in a million years like thought that I blamed Heavenly Father for not being there. And I know other people have, I know that there's that's a really common thing for some people, but it was never my thing. You know, my thing was always put on other people. It was always put on, you know, my abusers. Or it was put on like my family for not knowing what was going on, or, um, my teachers for not knowing what was going on, whatever else. But I never once thought that I blamed God and to all of a sudden realize there's a little part of me that that does you know, there's a little part of me that doesn't trust him in that sense, and I now need to work on that relationship. I need to work on that forgiveness, and I don't want to be. I don't want to be angry.

Dave Higham:

You know what I?

Alisha Coakley:

mean Like the last person in the universe that I want to be angry at, because he's the one that you know gives me everything, and and so just having that realization, I'm like gosh, like I'm still going through this repentance and forgiveness thing, dang, you know. And and to to the point of the victims, or to the point of the the um, uh, the men that that Kellen's working with, I think, too, they're realizing just how much of a ripple effect there is when we sin, right Like it. There is no sin that only affects us. There's not, and that's such an unfortunate thing. But at the same time, that means that there's no forgiveness that just affects us, and there's also no healing that just affects us.

Alisha Coakley:

So when we heal, how much of a ripple effect does our healing create for generations to come? How much does that reach out to, to other people, whether they're in our circle or not? You know what I mean it's. It's like it's this beautifully complicated system I think the heavenly father put into place, and I think he put it into place so that we can really become like him and have all the perspective. You know, I like what you said, kellen, about like it's a cycle and it's like going back to where you began and understanding where that is Cause all of a sudden you're like, oh, okay, it sort of reminds me, scott, when you in your book, you talk about the story we tell ourselves right.

Alisha Coakley:

And I think that through repentance and forgiveness we get to continually create a new version of the story over and over again that's even more intricate and even more beautiful, and characters develop stronger and circumstances become more complex but also more interesting to read. You know, we kind of get out of that surface level of black and white and we get to see all of the different colors that are in the story and so, um, yeah, it's.

Dave Higham:

Can I share a thought from that? For sure, this is, uh, the way my brain works. But, um, you know, the first great command we're told is to love god, and the second is to love others as ourselves, which to me means that really all the commandments are based on relationships. Yeah, and the better relationship we have with god, the better we're going to feel about ourselves. And if we look at it that way, really sin is anything we do that damages one of those relationships, whether it's with ourselves, which would affect, naturally, our relationship with God, or a relationship with somebody else, which means like if you think of any sin, you can think of it's damaging one or two or three of those relationships. Therefore, repentance is really the process of healing relationships. It's the process of trying to put things back together again, to make restitution where possible, to apologize where possible, and to me, that makes it easier to see repentance as a daily thing is that in every day, I'm trying to build my relationship with the Savior, I'm trying to build the relationship with myself and develop my own Christ-like skills, and I'm trying to build relationships with other people.

Dave Higham:

Now, sometimes some relationships maybe are too toxic to go back to at the time, and we have to. I'm not saying that we should try to heal relationships that both sides aren't willing to have a healthy relationship in. I think it relates. I think the principle goes back to King Benjamin in Mosiah 4, where he talks about helping other people financially and serving others. He says if you can't do it, you can't do it. But I want your attitude to be that I'll do it as soon as I can. I'll do it when I get to that point I can that we can't yet have a good, healthy relationship with.

Dave Higham:

Our responsibility is to prepare ourselves so that when the other individual is ready to have a healthy relationship, we're ready to step into that relationship with them, as opposed to just writing it off. I think that's part of the work that we can do on our own. Perhaps that's part of forgiveness, perhaps that's part of repentance, maybe it's the coin of the day, right, but to me that's how it's become. Most simplified for me as to what repentance really is is trying to heal relationships that get damaged by sin. I love that, yeah.

Kellen Winslow:

Can I say something on top of that too? So I love how you brought that in, because that's the way that I help my because I work with offenders and I also work with victims. So I see, sometimes it's a tough day because I'm going from one to the other and it's like holy smokes. So I talk about this a lot with the victims that I work with, because people, especially individuals who have gone through these really horrific events and rightfully so, and I understand why that they have to climb and it stops them from proceeding down this you know the process of forgiveness because they're so worried about that end goal of forgiving this person, and so I always talk to them about look, it's not about when you finish the process, it's when you start it, and you start the process by maybe not going to that mountain yet. But just let's find other areas where you need forgiveness in your life.

Kellen Winslow:

Maybe, like Alisha was bringing up, she felt the need like well, maybe I need to forgive God for this. Maybe I need to forgive my parents because I blame them for not protecting me. Maybe I have a friend who kind of set this up for me and I need to forgive her or him. Maybe we're not at the person that you need to forgive yet, but there are other people that would benefit from forgiveness from you, and that's where we should start, because I don't think you're ready to go to the mountaintop, but I think you are ready to start the process and at least feel the power that comes from forgiveness and let that drive you forward to where you need to be in your life. So I love that perspective because it's exactly how I approach it with my clients.

Alisha Coakley:

I really like that, kellen, where you're talking about like maybe you can't forgive this person, but let's start here.

Alisha Coakley:

You know, let's start with with maybe the ones who aren't the closest relationships and didn't have a big hand in it. And you know, I think in part of that too is in order to get to that top person. I joked about this a little bit, but I'm kind of serious. You know, we're commanded to pray for those who despitefully use us right and who manipulate us and whatever else, and sometimes that prayer is like I hope that they stub their toe and step on the Lego and they have a frog jump in their car. It's praying for them.

Alisha Coakley:

It's just not praying nice things for them, but at least you're like putting something into it, right. However, you know, one of the things that I that I have done is for my healing. I prayed not to necessarily be able to have these people back in my life or whatever else, but um, but my prayer has always been that they'll find the people, or that God will send the people to them who will help them with their own healing so that they no longer do that to anybody else. And so, like, if that's the most that I can ever pray for for those people, then that's the most that I can ever pray for them.

Alisha Coakley:

And at least it's not damaging to them and it's not something that is keeping them in a state of being an offender or being you know what I mean Like not being able to grow from from that and continually to to put that harm on other people. So maybe that's the only thing you can pray for is just pray that they'll find healing Not with you, but that's fine. Whatever. Pray that they find healing so that they no longer do this to somebody else, you know. So it's not something that they continue on on the path with.

Scott Brandley:

Yeah, all right Next topic. All right, next topic. So one of the things that I think people struggle a lot with and I think one of you hit on it was the idea if I forgive somebody, then they're kind of getting off right, they're getting away with it, and that kind of leads to the idea of you know the commandment, where we're commanded to forgive or else the bigger sin is on us. And that kind of led me down this path where I talk about in the book, as repentance and forgiveness are mutually exclusive events. In the book, as repentance and forgiveness are mutually exclusive events and that was kind of a big aha that I had when I was writing it where the transgressors salvation is 100% dependent on their ability to feel genuine remorse for what they've done and to sincerely ask for forgiveness from right, Regardless of whether that the other person forgives them.

Kellen Winslow:

Right.

Scott Brandley:

And the victim. Their salvation is 100% tied to their ability to forgive the transgressor, regardless of whatever the transgressor did or whether they ever asked for forgiveness. So I'd like to talk about that for a minute. Get you guys' thoughts on that.

Dave Higham:

I have never heard that put that way until I read that in your book and I thought that's so insightful. It's hard for me being the one in the public eye that's the sinner in my situation, but at the same time I do have to be. I do have to. I'm of the opinion that if I'm going to repent, I have to forgive first, and I was out for a walk with my wife tonight and talking more about why I feel that way and I've thought, you know if you think about.

Dave Higham:

So think about for yourself what is the biggest offense or the hardest person you've ever had to forgive for, something Like, what is that biggest thing?

Dave Higham:

And think whatever that is, you're asking God to do something like that for you.

Dave Higham:

You're asking him to forgive you of that and to push it away and take it.

Dave Higham:

You know Christ to take it on as part of his atonement, and for me that makes it all the more personal as to what the atonement is doing for me, what the Savior is doing for me and being willing to forgive me for what I've done that has hurt relationships with him, with others, and just as I take time to think and ponder about what I'm asking him to take from me or, sorry, what I have to forgive others for. That makes me more appreciative of what he's willing to forgive me of and what he's willing to take on for me. So in my mind, like we've done the two coins, all that other kind of conversation, but I do think they're two very different things. But I and maybe I'm jumping ahead, I don't know what your questions are coming up, but but the forgiving part is, and they're repenting part there they are two mutually exclusive, exclusive things with, like you say, but uh, but we both have to do both. Maybe I'm just repeating what we've done, but I love the way you, I love the way you laid that out.

Scott Brandley:

they really are mutually exclusive well in my mind, dave, like, for example, in your, in your situation, right, like something happened and that triggered a series series of events for a lot of other people. But now that's their responsibility. They have that mountain to overcome, like Kellen was saying right. But I think that's part of why God does it that way, because those things are now put in their path for them to. It's a cycle, like you were saying too, kellen, where now they've got something that they've got to overcome to refine themselves, to become better. And it might not have been a challenge that they asked for, but really are any of the challenges we're given things we ask for, right? So in some ways those are difficulties that were put on them, but in other ways those could be blessings, because as they overcome that challenge and they forgive, they become better for it, and blessings can come out of of bad things, right. So, anyway, it's kind of an interesting thought, kellen, Alisha, do you have any thoughts on on that idea?

Kellen Winslow:

yes, I do so. Uh, if, if you look at statistics okay, so if you look at an abuser, for example, and you screen 100 abusers and you find out who has also been sexually abused in their own life, you're looking at somewhere between 25 to 30% of sexual abusers have also been abused sexually. But if you expand that to just any type of abuse physical abuse, emotional abuse, neglect it's in the 90% Like there's roughly about 90% of offenders have been offended against somehow in their life and so probably the number one, like part of my job, is like okay, why did you do this? And the answer changes over the many years that I get to work with these individuals, but early on the answer oftentimes is because this was done to me. I did this to someone else because it was done to me, and I hate when I hear that answer because it's an excuse, but I also love to hear that answer because it's an opportunity for me to teach them one of the most essential truths in healing you may not be to blame for the things that have happened to you, but you're sure as heck responsible for handling them correctly and that was not a responsible way to handle what happened to you You're not to blame for what that person did to you when you were a child, but going off and as an adult, and doing the same thing isn't responsible. You're not taking responsibility for how you want to heal from this, you know. And so there's this huge, huge part, like the question you brought up originally was like, well, if I forgive them, I'm giving them off scot-free. And it's like no, you're not. You're not to blame for the harm that they cause for you, but you are now responsible for carrying your burden correctly and I have a job, because people didn't take responsibility of their part in their healing and I've seen horrible stories of this happened to me. Therefore, I'm doing this to somebody else, and one of my favorite scripture stories is when the woman is healed of a blood issue of 12 years, and the reason why that's one of my favorite stories is because, obviously, there's this grand miracle.

Kellen Winslow:

Right, she is waiting through this crowd and she touches the hem of the Savior's garment and she's miraculously healed from her faith.

Kellen Winslow:

But there's another miracle in that story that we often overlook and that's the miracle of her being able to go through 12 years of not being healed and not becoming bitter and not blaming God and not blaming other people.

Kellen Winslow:

She was able to go through those 12 years and when her moment of healing came, she was ready, and that's a miracle. That's the daily bread right that you're getting every day, that is sustaining you through this trial, and there are people that I know, that I work with, who are victims of their crimes, that have been waiting a lot longer, for 12 years, to get their healing or to hear those words I'm sorry, or whatever it might be, and you can't let that make you bitter towards the actual process of healing, which is the Savior, which is His atonement, and so I think this is really important because they are mutually exclusive. They're exclusive to the individuals in the circumstance, but within every individual, they're not mutually exclusive. Part of your repentance will probably have to be forgiving somebody, and part of you forgiving somebody, or forgiving yourself honestly, is to repent. You know, and so it's. I could talk about this all day, so I'll stop and you let someone else, but it's just, it's something that I see every single day, so I appreciate you bringing that up.

Scott Brandley:

Yeah.

Alisha Coakley:

Yeah, I could listen all day, kellen, yeah yeah, I feel like you have such deep insight into that kind of stuff and it just like triggers all these extra thoughts. For me, one of the things that you know, I guess that I was kind of thinking about just now is the fact that, um, in that, that endurance of however long it takes to go through repentance and to go through forgiveness, and they're not necessarily always going to be done at the same time. It's not like yeah.

Alisha Coakley:

I'm healed and I forgave someone. You know, it's like one I sometimes I just push heavenly father would just take it all away. It would be so easy for him. You know, I'm like I mean, come on, you created universes. Can't you just get rid of this thing and just make me be healed? And why do I have to do all the work? It's just not fair. So a part of me, my, my little toddler self, it's just like I just want you to do it all for me. And then the other part of me is like, when I look back at the things that I have been able to, to come through, and when I really think about all of the growth that's happened for me, and I think about even things like, you know, during the peak of my healing, like when I was like really just digging deep and I was feeling everything and I was going through therapies and, um, I mean just hurting so bad because I was dredging up everything that I had buried for years.

Alisha Coakley:

That's when I was called into young women and the most heartbreaking thing was that in being in that leadership position these girls because I was going through my own healing at the time I think they recognized a part of themselves in me and they started opening up to me about the abuse that was happening to them. And then, all of a sudden, I was in a position where I was like, if I had had someone talk to me early on, how much further in life could I have been if I started my healing process sooner. You know what I mean. And so I had a lot of really deep conversations with the young women who were being abused or who had been abused. I had these really hard, tearful conversations with them where I felt the spirit and I felt like I was really being led to be able to guide them towards resources. Like I didn't have to be the resource and I felt like I was really being led to be able to guide them towards resources. Like I didn't have to be the resource, I could just be the connection. You know what I mean. I could just say, look, I really think that maybe this is what you should do, or this is how you should act, or this is the book you should read or whatever it was. And and same thing with just women my own age, you know, um, during those it was probably about five or six years that I really really dug into it.

Alisha Coakley:

I can't tell you the amount of women that would just they because I was being open with where I was at, they felt safe and talking to me about where they were at and I was able to connect them to all these resources and stuff like that that helped them heal. So I didn't have to be the healer, you know, like I didn't have to do that, but it made me feel like I could see a little bit of the purpose in it. I could see what Scott was talking about. We're like Heavenly Father can use the bad to have good happen.

Alisha Coakley:

Um, and so, while, yes, I want everything to be done easily for me, I get to get these little glimpses of Heavenly Father's plan and I get to see where, you know, we have our agency, but he also has a that we went through. That takes a little bit of the sting away from what happened to us. You know, just in my own personal experience, like I feel like it makes it less painful for me because I'm getting outside of myself and I'm thinking, okay, what about them? How can I help them, you know, so that they don't have to feel this for as long as they felt it. So I don't know if that really answered any questions, but that was just a thought that I had.

Kellen Winslow:

Well, your, your thoughts sparked a thought for me. So you talked about how God is a creator and he created the universe, and why can't he just take these things away from me? And so there's a lot of ancient myths about creation, and they all kind of tell the same story. Like all of them have some sort of chaotic monster that's threatening the universe, and then some being comes and destroys that monster and uses that monster to create the universe. And the Genesis story is very similar. You know, god comes across this chaotic void that has unorganized matter and he organizes that to create the world. And so God is not somebody who poofs things in and out of its existence. He's somebody who comes across unorganized chaos and organizes it into something grander and more beautiful than what it was before.

Kellen Winslow:

And so, something that I tell my clients a lot of times that are going through this chaotic process of healing, it's like be grateful because you're giving the Lord materials to work with. Like you feel, like your life is chaotic. That's good, that's something that the Lord can use and turn into something beautiful. And you'll look back at your life five years from now or whatever it might be, and you'll look at all the chaos that was going on and you'll see what came from it and it's more beautiful than you would have ever imagined. And that's the creation of God. That's the work that he does. It's not just poofing things in and out, it's organizing something that is there. That may seem chaotic at the time, so I just thought I'd share that.

Alisha Coakley:

I love that. I don't know why this is going to sound bad, but I think of trash art. Yeah, no honestly taking trash and she creates like these, like really unique pieces of art with it and stuff, and I'm like oh, I don't want to say trash, but you know a hot mess art.

Dave Higham:

I don't know. But so, kellen, you've taken me to a thought. If I can share, cut it out if you want. You know, we know we come to earth to learn. We know we come to earth to learn and we have that saying that we've heard in the church forever. That along the lines of the more intelligence we gain in this life, the better it is for us in the next, and I've always thought of that.

Dave Higham:

As you know, that's kind of unfair for people that have learning disabilities and all that kind of stuff, and and and. Does it really matter if we know the names of all the tribes and what their blessings all are, and that kind of thing? I think the thing that's most impressive about God is that he respects our agency enough to be quiet through that kind of stuff. Like what kind of self control must it take to create a planet, put people on it and see this kind of horrible stuff happen and bite your tongue and and and and. Try to inspire people, try to prompt people along to do the right thing, but not step on agency and instead provide whatever support you can for whoever will accept that support to help you out or whatever in the aftermath of the damage that's done. But how do we learn that and to have that kind of self-control that God has, to have that kind of power and see that kind of stuff happen and go?

Dave Higham:

Ok, I'm instead going to Kellen's listening to me, I'm going to give Kellen some promptings and he can step into this person's life and give them some guidance and some help and some recovery hope. Because for whatever I can't I can't step on agency and I think of all the intelligence things that we have to learn, one of the most amazing things challenging, difficult things would be to have that kind of power and not overstep somebody's agency and instead work with whoever you can work with to inspire, to lift, to guide, to help the individual that's hurting and as soon as they get, which is why I think we want in life to surround ourselves as much as possible with people who can feel the spirit and are willing to be prompted, because that's how God's going to answer. Most of our prayers is to people who are willing to be prompted. So if we can keep people in our circles and in our lives who are prompted by God, he's going to respond to us much better than he can by not overstepping our agent, somebody's agency when they're doing something horrific.

Alisha Coakley:

I love that perspective of keeping this is how I'm going to deserve my kids scream Hopefully they're okay. I love that. I love that perspective of, like, keeping godly people in your life, you know, because you know that they're going to be, you know, looking for inspiration and they're going to be doing the things that are going to help them keep in tune with the spirit. So, even if you're in a position where you just feel like you can't be that godly person all the time, or 100%, or even, you know, 20% Like I love the thought of surround yourself with other godly people. Let God use them. You know he can use anybody.

Dave Higham:

That's how I survived the past five years.

Alisha Coakley:

Oh.

Dave Higham:

Is putting people that God was able to work with to help me.

Alisha Coakley:

That's awesome.

Kellen Winslow:

I think that's so powerful and you're so. I guess my thought sparked a thought and Alisha, which sparked a thought in me, which sparked a thought in you, and now it's coming back to me Like this is what the discussion's for, right, scott?

Kellen Winslow:

So I just, you know, I'm fascinated by this concept of meekness, okay. So, Alisha, you've probably heard this, I've said this at church before, but to my knowledge I've studied it out but I can't find another. I don't think there's any other verse in the New Testament in which the Lord describes himself through a character trait. So most of the time when the Lord describes himself, he's testifying of himself I'm the light, I'm the truth, I'm the way. Whatever it might be the only time that I can find in at least New Testament scripture when the Lord describes himself with a character trait. He says I am, you know, come unto me all you that are heavy laden and are burdened, heavy laden, and learn of me, for I am meek, I am meek. And so that sparked a thought in me, like if the Lord is using that specific word, he could have used any word, he could use humble, whatever, but he chose meek. And if that's the word he's using, then I better understand what that means. And the Greek word preos is the term that they, the word that they use for meekness, and Aristotle uses it in Nicodemus ethics, and he he describes meekness as the perfect point between anger and whatever. The opposite of that is it's like the perfect point. And he says we can call the man meek who is angry at the right person at the right time, for the right reason, for the right amount of time.

Kellen Winslow:

And you're talking about this concept of self-control and God's self-control about not intervening on our agency. But now you take that a step further, for like forgiveness and how much self-control it must take to forgive somebody. There's times you want to rip that person's head off and there's times that you may want to go too far into forgiveness about bringing somebody back into your life. And there's like that you may want to go too far into forgiveness about bringing somebody back into your life. And there's like a very fine line between forgiving someone correctly and forgiving someone in a way that might harm you further. And then, with repentance too, it's like this fine balance between being too hard on yourself and being too empathetic towards yourself. But then there's like a fine line between proper repentance and taking it too far or not taking it far enough.

Kellen Winslow:

Yeah, and so when you talked about like this grand sense of self-control in God, it's like that's exactly who he is. He is meek. That's the only way he described himself. There's no other way that he would describe himself. That's exactly who he is and we're supposed to learn that. Like that is difficult. We're supposed to learn how to do that same thing. You know, I haven't figured it out yet, but I'd love to one day, you know so.

Scott Brandley:

But I think that forgiveness and repentance are two of. I haven't always thought of this, but I think that they're two of the greatest gifts that God has given us, because they do help us. Like you were saying, dave, they help us to overcome the chaos in the world. Right, god has given us agency and he's given everyone agency, and we all infringe on each other's agency constantly through the decisions we make, but through repentance and forgiveness, we're able to make sense of it. We're able to overcome and become better for the chaos that we go through and the challenges and the hard times, and we become refined and we become like him because of the gifts of repentance and forgiveness. That was my aha that I had from your aha. Oh, that's awesome. Um, I did want to read I haven't done this on the other things, but I wanted to read a piece of my book that I think kind of ties, ties together this whole idea of repentance and forgiveness and how they help us to live a Christlike life. So, if that's okay with you guys, I'm just going to read this.

Scott Brandley:

Of course, by striving to live a Christ-like life, we are ever attempting to see the world from his perspective and trying to do what he would do if he were in our shoes. We are choosing to look past worldly views, politics, scientific theories and the latest socially accepted norms and trends, in an effort to see all of the people in the world as equals, our true brothers and sisters. We are choosing to look past people's flaws, facades, opinions, false ideas and biases so we can see each other's true potential. We are trying to see who people are meant to be, regardless of who they are now. We are choosing to look inside our own souls, take an honest inventory of our spiritual standing and commitment to God and then take necessary steps to change the parts that we know need to be changed, even if we can only take baby steps today. As we strive to live a Christ-like life, we naturally develop Christ-like attributes. Those attributes include, but are not limited to, christ-like attributes. Those attributes include, but are not limited to, love, compassion, kindness, selflessness, charity, long-suffering, goodness, grace, hope and, of course, forgiveness. All of these attributes combine to bring us closer to God and Christ, which ultimately strengthens our faith.

Scott Brandley:

If there is someone out there who has hurt you, I plead with you to find it in your heart to forgive that person unconditionally, especially if they don't deserve it and if you have hurt someone, please try to find a way to seek forgiveness and mercy and to repent and make amends if possible. There is no greater feeling of freedom and joy in this world than having heavy burdens lifted from your soul, and joy in this world than having heavy burdens lifted from your soul. If you need help removing these burdens, remember that parents and close friends are always good to lean on and can give you great advice. Bishops are also great resources.

Scott Brandley:

During my service as a bishop, I saw so many people's lives dramatically and fundamentally change for the better through repentance and forgiveness. I know that your life can change too. Remember that God loves you no matter what. Remember, too, that Christ is there to bridge the gap, no matter how wide or deep the chasm may seem. There is no divide. He cannot and will not cross to save you. So I don't know. I just feel like people need to know how much God loves them in their life, and and truly, repentance and forgiveness are incredible gifts if we use them, and one of the reasons why I wanted to have you guys on the show particularly is because I've seen you use them in your life and I appreciate the lessons that you've taught me through your experiences. So thank you guys for being here and sharing again with us today.

Alisha Coakley:

Yeah.

Scott Brandley:

Any last thoughts before we kind of wrap up that you'd like to share.

Dave Higham:

I do, but if anyone wants to go first, that's fine.

Alisha Coakley:

No, you got it.

Dave Higham:

One of the things I found puzzling and a challenge for me is very quick into my excommunication, I felt forgiven by the Lord and that was a real head game for a while. How was it that I felt forgiven forgiven when others were still hurting, where I hadn't really gone through any steps of repentance yet, and the church said I still had five years to go till I could be considered for baptism? And what I've come to believe from my experiences, from my studying of the Savior in the scriptures and all of this, is that he is forgiving us very quickly. Even the example of the cross, I mean he wasn't dead yet and they're ripping the garments, there hasn't gone dark yet, there hasn't been the thunder and the lightning and the shaking of the earth and all they don't even know that he's already saying Father, forgive them Time and time again. That's his example in the scriptures and my experience has been that as well. Now, that does not mean that I at that time felt like I had no need to change, that I had no need to repent, that I had no need to grow, that I could just stop at that point. What I found was that, allowing myself to feel his love and his willingness to forgive me became the motivation to want to understand him more and understand the Savior more and to become more like the Savior.

Dave Higham:

Because of that, and so often like as you were, bishop Scott you've seen people who don't want to forgive themselves. They want to hang on to stuff, and I even believe that. The story of Enos, I think sometimes I suspect we could read that another way, if we're not already reading it the wrong way. Enos prays all day for forgiveness until the Lord finally says look. He says, receive remission of your sins, get on with life. And how many times, a bishop, do you have somebody sitting in the chair that you're like if you could just forgive yourself and move forward. But it's so hard for us to do that, and it's my experience that God and Christ forgive us very quickly. We turn to him and he's forgiving us already.

Dave Higham:

Others may not forgive us yet, but if we can allow ourselves to feel that and then use that as a motivation to fall more in love with them and to have a desire to figure out why, how can they do that so quickly? How can they offer that kind of love and forgiveness right off the bat and then take that as a motivation to become more like them, to figure it out and to make the changes in our own lives and to look for them in the day-to-day, in the people who bless us in the experiences we have. I believe that's really the way that forgiveness and repentance work in dealing with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. With others forgiveness often comes further down the path.

Dave Higham:

But god and christ repentance, it doesn't mean you're celestial glory at that or celestial ready. You know the child that goes and steals a candy bar from the store and then goes through all those steps we learn in primary and then takes the candy bar back and says sorry and everything else. They can feel forgiven, but that doesn't mean they're ready for the celestial kingdom. At that point they haven't developed any of these kinds of christ-like attributes yet. They've just gone through some motions and hasn't necessarily changed them inside. But I do believe with God forgiveness comes first to any of us as soon as we turn to him, and then that can be turned to motivation to change for a reason. That is probably the reason he really wants us to change, you know we just we just reviewed in Sunday school or whatever.

Alisha Coakley:

We've reviewed sister Runia's talk from the April conference.

Dave Higham:

Awesome talk.

Alisha Coakley:

Yeah, your repentance doesn't burden the Lord, something like that. But there's a part that I highlighted in that talk that just like really stood out to me and and was just so beautifully put. I want to just read that for a second. But she says your worth isn't tied to your obedience. Your worth is constant, it never changes. It was given to you by God and there's nothing you or anyone else can do to your obedience. Your worth is constant, it never changes. It was given to you by God and there's nothing you or anyone else can do to change it.

Alisha Coakley:

Obedience brings blessings, that's true, but worth isn't one of them. Your worth is always great in the sight of God, no matter where your decisions have taken you, and I love that so much because I think that kind of gives us permission to give ourselves mercy, whether we're talking about repentance or forgiveness. Right, like we're not, we're not worth any less because we can't forgive someone, and we're not worth any less because we can't work through our own messy trash. Through our own messy trash, right? Heavenly Father wants us to be able to love ourselves. He wants us to see how much worth we have, but at the same time, there really is nothing that we can do other than be obedient. Right, being obedient is going to bring us blessings, but it doesn't change our worth, and I love that.

Kellen Winslow:

So much blessings, but it doesn't change our worth, and I just I love that so much so I I want to comment on this. Um, you know, when I first took this job on um, I was exposed to a lot of really difficult things. Um, you know, I have to hear the details of every crime these guys have committed. I have to go through their property, I have to view. You know, I've I've seen things that I can't unsee and I've heard things that I can't unhear, and for the longest time it was hard for me to separate that from my own feelings of worthiness, because I couldn't help but feel like I was being affected by the things I was seeing and the things I was hearing. And so I was able to talk to a stake president about this during a Temple Reckonment interview and I told him my predicament. I'm like, look, every day at work I have to see things that I'm not allowed to see. Like how do I separate myself from this? And he just kind of looked at me and he said you know, the Bible doesn't hold anything back. And I was like what do you mean? He was like the Bible talks about, and he just started naming everything you know genocide and rape and incest and all this kind of stuff. And he's like so the Lord obviously was aware of all those things happening. And I was like, and even more. And I was like, yeah, and he's like, and he has a perfect joy. And I said, yeah, and he's like, do you ever wonder how that is? And I asked, and he said it's because he chooses to see the potential in those people instead of just the things that they're doing. And the things that you're exposing, you're, you're being exposed to are not, are not creating your worth in his eyes and they're not creating their worth in his eyes.

Kellen Winslow:

A couple years go by. I'm in the thick of this job now I have a client who comes to me and he's having some really difficult times with this concept of self-forgiveness. Again, he doesn't feel worthy of it. He tried to take his own about a year before he committed all of his offenses. He was really struggling with his thought processes and he didn't like that. He was thinking about doing the things that he wanted to do and he tried to take his own life and didn't, didn't work.

Kellen Winslow:

And then he goes on to offend. And so he asked me he's like why did God keep me alive If he knew that I was going to go on and commit these crimes, you know. And if he knew that I was going to go on and commit these crimes, you know and I don't I didn't know what to tell him at the time. I don't remember what I told him at the time, but if I could tell him something now, it would be that that the Lord saw beyond that and saw the potential of who you could become, and he decided that it was worth it. And I don't mean that disrespectful towards the people he victimized. But we are a process of becoming something and we can't have this negative view of ourself to the point where we cripple our own potential.

Kellen Winslow:

My clients don't feel like they're worthy of forgiveness. Well, guess what? Nobody is. If you were worthy of repentance, or if you were worthy of forgiveness, you wouldn't need it. That's the beautiful thing. It's a gift. It's given to you when you don't even deserve it. You're not worthy of it, and so quit letting your own negative feelings dictate the way that you're allowing yourself to progress and reach your own potential. You know, I, I, uh. Do you remember that book that, uh, you are special? By Max? Uh, I can't remember his name.

Kellen Winslow:

Um, you know, it's the, the women with the dots, the stars and the and the circles and they they fall off. Well, I read that to my clients, um, and a lot of them had tears in their eyes afterwards and they were just looking at me and I was looking at I mean, these guys are people who committed murder and were running drugs on the border and doing all kinds of stuff and like they're gangbangers and all this kind of stuff. And they're crying in front of me because I read them a children's book and I was like what the heck? And they all looked at me and they're like this is the first time someone's ever read me a book. I never had a mom. I never had a mom read me a book.

Kellen Winslow:

You know, and we just don't understand who people are. But we can see who they can become and if we can choose to see them the way God sees them, which is the person that they have the potential to become, and we see ourselves as the person that we have the potential to become, and we see ourselves as the person that we have the potential to become, we will never stop making progress and we will never stop forgiving and we'll never stop repenting, because we understand that that's the path that we must take to get there. So just thought I would conclude my thoughts on that.

Scott Brandley:

That was amazing.

Alisha Coakley:

I agree.

Scott Brandley:

Well, thanks, guys, for all your thoughts and serious from the bottom of my heart. I really appreciate you and I think people get a lot of value out of this. I mean a lot of these things we just don't get. We just don't go into detail, a lot of you know, and even in the gospel, even in church, because it's hard, these are hard topics to talk about.

Kellen Winslow:

So I really appreciate you being willing to share today, of course, it was really nice to meet you, dave. Nice to meet you too Enjoy talking to you, so thanks for having us back on.

Alisha Coakley:

Yeah, and thanks Scott for spending nine years putting together this book and now giving you know a free download away to anybody who wants it. You guys make sure, scott, tell them all the things, because you really I mean it's just the thoughts in there and it sparks so many discussions and sparks so many ideas and so many aha moments. Um, and just the fact that you were willing to put in that time and effort and energy and continue to make it as easy as possible for anybody to get, um, I just, I think we just have to say kudos to Scott too.

Dave Higham:

And such a variety of things, looking at so many different things from so many different angles.

Alisha Coakley:

a lot of research there's definitely something for everybody, regardless of where you're at in your in your faith journey, you know. So go download the book for free at faithtostaycom right.

Scott Brandley:

Yeah, yeah, faithtostaycom, you can get the free digital download for your kindle or your ipad. You can get the free audio streaming audio download. There's no opt-ins or anything. You can just go get it there and then, if you want the book, you can go to amazon and get it. Um, and any proceeds that that I get from it will go to the Markovia Project, which is another one of our Latter-day Light family. That's a fun story too. But yeah, thanks again, guys for being on and thanks everyone for tuning in to this special episode, and we will have another one for you next week. Until then, take care, bye-bye, thanks guys. Take care, bye-bye, thanks guys.

Dave Higham:

Bye, bye.

People on this episode

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Scott Brandley

Host
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Alisha Coakley

Co-host