When Kellen Winslow was a young boy his father went to prison for a crime he didn't commit. This eventually led him to a career in forensic psychology, where he helps to counsel and rehabilitate abusers and offenders.
Can an abuser truly be forgiven? Discover how Kellen navigates the difficult challenges of counseling people who have committed horrible crimes, and how it's broadened his understanding of forgiveness and the atonement, and has given him hope in the power and ability for people to change.
This is a fascinating story that you don't want to miss!
*** Please SHARE Kellen's story and help us spread hope and light to others. ***
To WATCH this episode on YouTube, visit: https://youtu.be/BXFYBqDQAfg
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Also, if you have a faith-promoting or inspiring story, or know someone who does, please let us know by going to https://www.latterdaylights.com and reaching out to us.
When Kellen Winslow was a young boy his father went to prison for a crime he didn't commit. This eventually led him to a career in forensic psychology, where he helps to counsel and rehabilitate abusers and offenders.
Can an abuser truly be forgiven? Discover how Kellen navigates the difficult challenges of counseling people who have committed horrible crimes, and how it's broadened his understanding of forgiveness and the atonement, and has given him hope in the power and ability for people to change.
This is a fascinating story that you don't want to miss!
*** Please SHARE Kellen's story and help us spread hope and light to others. ***
To WATCH this episode on YouTube, visit: https://youtu.be/BXFYBqDQAfg
-----
Also, if you have a faith-promoting or inspiring story, or know someone who does, please let us know by going to https://www.latterdaylights.com and reaching out to us.
Hey everyone, I'm Scott Brandley.
Alisha Coakley:And I'm Alisha Coakley. Every member of the church has a story to share, one that can instill faith, invite growth and inspire others.
Scott Brandley:On today's episode we're going to hear how one man's career counseling sex offenders has led him to a better understanding of forgiveness and the atonement. Welcome to Latter-day Lights. Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Latter-day Lights. We're so glad you're here with us and we're really excited to introduce our guest to you today, kellen Winslow. Kellen, how are you doing? Doing?
Kellen Winslow:great, glad to be here, really excited. Thank you for having me.
Alisha Coakley:I'm really excited to have you too.
Alisha Coakley:Kellen is, so he's representing Lubbock, he's representing our award here. He is our Sunday school teacher for gospel doctrine and he always has the most incredible stories and I you know, being new to the war like I don't know any of his background, and so he's like dropping these little nuggets in this lesson and dropping nuggets in that lesson, and at some point I don't even know which one it was, but at some point I was like, okay, that's, I need to know more. So thankfully, you were like such a gem and you're like, yeah, I'll absolutely come on your show and do this.
Alisha Coakley:And I'm like, yay, so I'm super excited to actually get to know you really well and, yeah, to hear your story. But for those who are listening today who don't know you, why don't you kind of introduce yourself to us? Let us know a little more about, about the Winslow family and all of the good things?
Kellen Winslow:Yeah, absolutely so. I'm married. Me and my wife, emily have been married for about seven years now and we have two beautiful children. I've got a three and a half year old son and a one or one and a half year old daughter. We've lived all over the United States, so I'm originally from California, my wife's originally from Utah, and we met in Virginia while we were going to school at Southern Virginia University. So she was playing lacrosse there, I was playing basketball, and we moved into the same apartment complex together and met while living across the hall from each other. And then the rest is history. So from there we went to Denver, got our, got my master's degree in forensic psychology, and then I moved here for for my job. So been all over, been West Coast, east Coast, mountains I don't know what you would call West Texas, but it's different than most places in the world Hot, dry, more cows than people.
Alisha Coakley:So yeah, Wow, that's really cool. I didn't. I had no idea that she was a lacrosse player.
Kellen Winslow:That's really that's really cool, yeah, so yeah.
Alisha Coakley:Very cool. So so she could. She could beat you up if you don't stay in line, right?
Scott Brandley:She does.
Kellen Winslow:She can and she does. She still has the lacrosse stick. She keeps it in the in the kitchen, just in case.
Alisha Coakley:There you go, there you go Awesome.
Scott Brandley:So your career took you to Texas. Is that why you're there?
Kellen Winslow:Yes, yeah. So I got my masters in Colorado, but I was really open to going anywhere and I just I found this job and we'll get into that a little later too but found this job in Texas and just felt inspired to go there and never heard of Lubbock before, so it was a complete surprise to me and to my wife. She was like why aren't we going to Lubbock?
Scott Brandley:Yeah.
Alisha Coakley:It's funny that's what I hear from a lot of people A lot of people move to the area not having ever heard of it before and just kind of like matriculating there for some random I mean us too Like we literally just did a random google search and we're like where's Lubbock? I don't know what that is, but it's pretty big. It's a pretty big small town, if that makes sense.
Kellen Winslow:Yeah, it totally makes sense. There's a lot here.
Alisha Coakley:So that's cool, well, very cool, all right. Well, we are excited to have you. We're excited to hear more about your story and your insights, so we will turn the time over to you. Tell us, where does your story begin?
Kellen Winslow:Well, my story begins really in high school. So I grew up a member of the church. I was baptized when I was eight years old. I had three older siblings that were great examples. I had two parents that were great examples and during my high school years my father was wrongfully accused of a crime and had a—I won't get into all the details, but there was a grave miscarriage of justice and he ended up going to jail for something he didn't do. So it was kind of a wake-up moment for me about what do I believe about life, what do I believe about God? Why do bad things happen to good people, and so forth. So I had to answer those questions in high school. Luckily, I had a very loving mother that helped me answer those questions, not by conversation, but just how she persisted through that trial. So I watched my mom and saw her just be so strong and I said I need to be strong too. So it really attached me to this belief that God is first and foremost our loving Heavenly Father and everything else just builds on that principle. So that's really where my story started, about faith and God and Christ and everything along those lines. That's also kind of where my interest in the justice system came.
Kellen Winslow:So when I—I'll be the first to admit, I did not care about school when I was growing up, or going to high school, even college. I didn't go to college to go to school, I went to college to play basketball, and so I just took the classes so I can stay eligible. And then I took a psychology class by a professor named Alan Whitehead and it just completely changed my life and I learned about this field in psychology called forensic psychology, and since—because of what happened to my dad, it really got me interested in learning more about the justice system and how things like that happen, so that—I didn't really know what I wanted to do with that career, obviously. But—so I started that journey on forensic psychology, which is what I got my masters in, and I would have—if you told me then that I would be working with sex offenders, I would have laughed at you, because I—that was the last type of person that I ever wanted to work with.
Kellen Winslow:You know, I was going into my master's degree with the mindset of I want to be a federal investigator and I want to investigate sex crimes. That's what I wanted to do, and I actually had a temp—what's it called. I had a job offer a tentative job offer from Homeland Security to be on the Border Patrol, and my goal was to work through the Border Patrol and eventually, you know, start investigating sex trafficking crimes on the border. So I wanted to like catch the rapists and child molesters and put them in prison. I mean, that's what I wanted to do.
Kellen Winslow:Then I had a son and basically everything changed. I had a very different perspective of life after that. I really wanted to be there for him more and I knew that a career in you know, federal investigations this wasn't going to allow me the time that I wanted with my son. So I started looking at other areas in that field that would kind of be more freeing. And that's where I found this job in Little Field, texas, to be a sex offender treatment provider. And I kind of—I never heard of that before, but it's basically in layman's terms it's rehabilitating sex offenders. You're trying to help them understand why they did what they did, what led them to there, and teach them those things so that they never repeat that behavior again. And to not to sugarcoat anything, it's a very difficult, challenging job and it's very tasking, but it's very important. There's a lot of weight. So that's kind of the intro I would say to my story. I don't know if you guys have any questions about that before I move on.
Alisha Coakley:Well, I did have one question how long was your dad in jail? For how long did you guys have to go without him?
Kellen Winslow:So he was arrested. The first time he was arrested when I was in eighth grade, or either eighth grade or ninth grade I honestly don't remember which one, but it was somewhere around that time and then he was going to trial for basically every week for about four years and then he got arrested or found guilty and then he went to jail for about a year. But it was during some pretty important parts of my life. I was going into my senior year and some very big life choices are coming after that. So I was still obviously able to talk to him and visit him and things like that, but it wasn't the same. So it was about a year time, wow.
Alisha Coakley:Oh my gosh.
Scott Brandley:You mentioned that affected your faith and things. What went through your mind? How did you react to the church at that time? Did you rebel? I?
Kellen Winslow:Well, in the, I wouldn't say that I rebelled because my father went to jail. I'd say that I rebelled because I was a teenager at times and um, but I I don't know why I can say this, but I never had an ill feeling about God or about the church from this. I never, I never, questioned my belief. I never questioned whether God was real. Obviously, I asked the questions like why would this be happening If? If you are a loving God? But it wasn't. It wasn't asked in anger, it was more asked in sincere lack of understanding. I just, you know, I was a 17 year old kid who didn't know anything about the world at that time, so I never had any ill feelings. I just, I just wanted to know what, what the purpose was of this and, um, you know it really, it really made my face stronger.
Kellen Winslow:Honestly, I took that time to get closer to my heavenly father, since my earthly father wasn't around as much. So that was really what I took that as time to be. And, honestly, I have a lot to think about my, my, my father too, because when he was going through this, he would always tell me and my siblings hey, don't use this as an excuse to rebel and doubt God and and be disobedient. Use this as motivation to move forward. You know? And and he even said, what would this be like if we didn't have God in our life? How much worse would this be if we didn't have faith in Christ. I can't imagine going through this without them. So my parents really helped me stay strong during all that, because they never allowed room for me to doubt. You know, they were always so sure of it. So I would have felt I would have felt wrong to even doubt for a minute. You know.
Alisha Coakley:Right, right, wow, that's oh my goodness. I don't know why, but I just I couldn't help but think, you know, even Joseph Smith went to jail, right, like he was wrongfully accused too. So in a way you kind of have that, I guess, connection almost you know where you you can kind of resonate a little bit with with some of those other great historical figures and stuff like that who you know had to really really go through some persecution to the extreme.
Alisha Coakley:So that's incredible, wow. Okay. So take us to how. So? So you decided on this career? What was that like, getting started? I mean, I, I can imagine you're there's only so much preparation right, like mental preparation but then, when you actually are sitting there in front of your very first, what do you call them? Patient, client, customer Clients oh, residents Clients, yeah, Okay. So when you're sitting there with your very first resident, who is a sex offender, who has done, you know, some of these unspeakable things, how was that for you getting started?
Kellen Winslow:It was a transition. You know, I think everyone has an idea of who a sex offender is. Everyone has this kind of picture in their mind and when they, when they think sex offender, they think of this type of individual right and I had that same, that same outlook. There's a lot of stigma in there and there should be. You know, they've committed some very, very traumatic crimes, some very extreme crimes, but I wasn't, I wasn't prepared for, I wasn't prepared for the, I guess, the empathy that I would develop for them and I know that kind of sounds weird, but I'll give you, I'll give you an example here. Okay, so before I continue, I just want to say this everything I'm about to say and I'm not going to get gruesome in details and all that stuff, but everything I'm about to talk about is real people with real experiences, real men who committed real crimes, who affected very real victims. None of this stuff is light or fake or it's. It happened to a real person and so I'm going to try to bring that respect with how I speak about it. I don't want to make light of heavy topics, so I just like sharing that disclaimer, but part of my job is to help these men be responsible for what they did and then overcome that. And part of that is hearing every detail of their crime, what they thought, what they felt, what they did, everything about that. So I'm just going to give you an example of kind of a typical week and then I'll talk about empathy for a minute.
Kellen Winslow:So Monday, a man comes into my office. Okay, he's in the accountability phase of his treatment. So I have to sit there and not to listen to this man described to me in detail of his crimes. And he, he had very aggressive crimes and his victims were child victims and it was to the point where they actually had to be hospitalized to recover and needed he needed reconstructive surgery. Horrible crimes. Okay, it's really hard to have a have any sort of sympathy or empathy for someone who would do that Right, okay, so then a couple, couple of days go by, another gentleman comes to my office.
Kellen Winslow:He's in a different part of treatment. He's he's discovering the things that happened to him. Okay, so this man comes in my office and he tells me about how when he from the time he was nine to 14, he was locked in a basement, in a cage, essentially, okay, His mom was addicted to drugs and actually kidnapped him from the foster home he was living in, took him across state lines and basically sold him out to sex traffickers in exchange for drug money. Okay, horrible, traumatic childhood, you know. And so my job now is to help this person process all the trauma that has occurred to them in their childhood.
Kellen Winslow:Okay, a couple of days later, another man comes to me and he has severe psychosis. He's severely paranoid, schizophrenic, he has active delusions and hallucinations. He has this delusion that there is a demon living inside of him and if he doesn't do certain things to himself, like hurt himself or cut himself, that the demon will will hurt him and his family. And so he, he believes that that's true. So now my job is to try to help this person distinguish between reality and fantasy and help him stay grounded in that who's who.
Kellen Winslow:Who out of those three people is it easier to have empathy and sympathy for? If you ask the general population, they're going to say, well, the guy who is illicit from age of 9 to 14, and the guy who's in severe mental health crisis, not the sex vendor who cares about him. But those weren't three different people, that's all one person. That's all of those problems are occurring with one of my clients. Okay, so it's not just the same person, it's not just it's not just this black and white like, well, they did this and therefore this happened. It's, it's not that simple, you know, it really isn't, and I wasn't prepared for that. I was going in there expecting, like these, just horrible men. But but when you, when you sit down and look at them for who they are not who they were, not what, just what they did, but who they are and who they have the potential to become it becomes something very new to you.
Kellen Winslow:Okay, and there's this really great quote that I wanted to share. It's by Henry Wadsworth Longfell. He's an American poet and he says if we could read the secret history of our enemies, we should find in each man's life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility. Okay, and that has become more or less my motto for treatment is there's, there's so much more to the story. This isn't just one day.
Kellen Winslow:This kid woke up when he was eight years old and said I want to be a sex offender. Right, there's millions and millions and millions of experiences that make them who they are, that that kind of pushed them in that direction, millions of micro decisions that they made, and it's the same for us. If you think about who you are today. You didn't just wake up one day and be who you are. There were millions of experiences, good and bad, that pushed you where you're supposed to be or where you ended up being, and in the first place. And so that was something I was not prepared for in any way, and at first I kind of felt guilty. I kind of felt like should I be feeling empathy and sympathy for these men who did these horrible things? And I know it might be weird to say, but that's the Christlike thing to do. You know these, these are men who have potential to become something better than they were, and it's my job to help them see that and unlock that. So that's how that initial thing was.
Scott Brandley:Did you have in there like a conflict, like having those feelings of empathy?
Kellen Winslow:At first, yeah, I did, because I felt guilty because of the victims. I was thinking, well, what if? What would a victim think if I told them this? You know what if I was to look at this man's victim and tell them that you know you should have empathy for them, or should I have empathy for them? You know, first off I wouldn't say it like that, but I did feel a little bit of guilt. But then I started to have a better understanding of the atonement, the better understanding of forgiveness, a better understanding of the purpose of the gospel. Okay, so that kind of helped alleviate that guilt for sure.
Alisha Coakley:It's interesting that you say you know well. Okay, so just a little bit of background. I was one of those child victims when I was younger. My parents didn't know about any of it until I was 17. But I had a few different experiences with a few different people, both children and some adults, right. So I had some children who obviously they must have had the same thing happening to them, and then these adults who they had a lot of mental problems and a lot of addictions and a lot of other things going on too.
Alisha Coakley:And I remember when I was it was about 10 years ago or so, a little less than 10 years ago I went to a retreat for women who were victims of childhood sexual abuse, and so I went to this retreat and when we were there, we learned a lot about the brain, we learned about trauma, we learned about how there are a lot of victims who do empathize with their abusers and that's why they don't speak up, that's why they don't say anything, because they truly don't want them getting in trouble, because there is this empathy, even though they don't trust them, there is this little bit of empathy and that's kind of. That was kind of like the description of me right, like some, some of those who experience that they're completely on the opposite spectrum. You know, like, where they, they hate them and they just want all of the bad things to happen to them and whatever else. And they're valid, like, wherever you're at, like you like, your feelings are valid and your reactions are valid. But I remember having this, this moment, and I've shared this on one of the other episodes that we did, where one of the the other girls who was there, one of the other women who was who was there, she had shared her story of how, you know, she had had her experiences when she was younger and and we'd all really grown to love her. You know, like we connected on a deep level and then she shared that, that as she got a little bit older, she became the abuser to her, her sibling, her younger sibling, and I remember her shame and then I remember the only thing I could feel for her was complete Christ, like, love, like, like even knowing that she herself became the monster. Right, I had already developed this love for her and I had developed the sympathy for her and I came home from that retreat and I thought, what if all of my abusers had something like that happen to them. You know like what, if, and and it's interesting because I and maybe you have a number.
Alisha Coakley:I don't have a statistic, but I know that there are a lot of people who are sex offenders who have had abuse happen to them, whether it's sexual abuse or physical or something. A lot of them do come from very unstable childhoods. You know they have a lot of trauma and things like that that they have to work through. And so I I got on facebook and I did a live and I was talking about this experience and there were a few of my friends that I know had had the same experiences happen to them. And when I mentioned to them how I wanted to learn how to forgive my abusers, it I mean it sent, it sent them down this huge like I can't believe that you would okay with it. I mean it's so hard. It is so hard.
Alisha Coakley:But but through the whole process I remember thinking to myself it were commanded in the scriptures to pray for those who despitefully use us, right, and that's what I felt like happened to me. I was used and you know, at first you can start praying for them to Be served jury duty and to sub their toes and you know, I mean, like you can pray for bad things to happen to them. That's technically praying for them, right, and that's maybe where my party to start. Eventually, my prayers kind of went into a. You know, I started praying that they would be able to find the help they needed so that they wouldn't do that to anyone else. If they, if I, could pray for their healing, you know, then maybe at the very least they wouldn't put any more trauma on someone else and they'd be able to stop that train.
Alisha Coakley:And that, for me personally, has helped a ton In my own healing journey.
Alisha Coakley:I feel so much freer, I feel like I don't have to carry that burden of of being in that victim mentality more and I feel like, overall, it's just it's it's helped me and my parenting, it's helped me in my relationship with my husband and with my relationship with others. And so I, I guess, from a from a victims point of view, I'm so thankful that there are people like you who are willing to rehabilitate, because punishment only goes so far. Right, like, what are you gonna do? Gonna keep someone locked up forever? You really can't. And one of the things that I had always thought of especially becoming a mom was what if something traumatic happened to my kids? And Like I pray this never, ever happens. But if something traumatic happened to them that triggered them to the point where they became an abuser of some in some way maybe it was domestic abuse or you know. Whatever it was would I not want them to find healing, like I wouldn't want them to be Shunned to an island or shot and you know disposed of.
Alisha Coakley:I wouldn't want them to be forgotten or locked up in prison for the rest of their life, like I would want them to be able to heal. So how do you like, I guess, how long did it take you to kind of transition from this feeling of guilt to now you're feeling just a lot more empathy and a lot more Understanding towards them?
Kellen Winslow:I ask a good question. I've actually never thought of that I. It probably took me. I mean it doesn't sound like a lot of time. I would say probably about a month, like four to six weeks, but You're so heavily immersed in this job it it I mean four to six weeks feels like about a year. You hear, you hear pretty much everything you can think of in those four to six weeks and and so I would say that that was a big part of it. But what really helped me was to see Because the way that my, my facility runs a treatment program is there's different levels, so If somebody's a little bit further advanced treatment there in a higher level, so they have more privileges and so forth, and you can see the difference.
Kellen Winslow:You can see those who've taken treatment serious, and I was working with a lot of the men who were new to treatment and so they were still in just blatant denial. They were still just A lot of them were blaming the victims or a lot of them were. I mean it was very hard, so it was kind of more confrontational. And then, as I started to meet some of these other men that have been in treatment a lot longer we're talking like eight, ten, twelve years, you can tell that they've changed a lot, and Most of them feel extremely remorseful for what they did. They heavily regretted. They feel a great amount of shame and guilt and would do anything go back in time and change that, but they can't, and so they're doing the best they can to move forward.
Kellen Winslow:So I would say it was about a four to six week process, and it took me seeing the treatment work To see that. Okay, you know, this is this is something that that I need to do. I need to view these men For who they can become and not just who they were or who they're choosing to be today. I need to see them differently. So that that's, that's, that was the big transition.
Scott Brandley:So what is rehabilitation? The rehabilitation process look like from the beginning to end.
Kellen Winslow:Well there's, there's kind of two answers. That question is the literal and then there's the spiritual. I think we all know the spiritual answer is it's all about repentance and the atonement and forgiveness, but Quite literally, it's a. So the men I work with are civilly committed. So what that means is they serve their sentence and, due to an evaluation and having re offended, usually multiple times, it means that they have been found to be at an increased risk to re offend, and so they've served their sentence. But they're not seem to be safe enough to be in society yet, so they go to this Lockdown treatment facility. So, just to give you kind of a statistic, there's about a hundred thousand Sex offenders registered in state of texas. I work with the four hundred, and yeah, just in texas, and I work with about four hundred and fifty of them, the four hundred and fifty that were felt to be For lack of a better term to dangerous or higher risk to be back in the community right away. So they.
Kellen Winslow:So the first step is this kind of preparing them for treatment. You teach them what they're going to be doing and how to think before they act and what, what your thoughts and your feelings are, and a lot of them don't know how to recognize those things. A lot of them don't even know any emotion other than anger, and so you're just trying to teach them how to recognize emotions. And then the second kind of phase Is all about their offenses, their, their offense history, un reported and reported victims, uncharged victims and charged victims, and I mean, when you get into the uncharged victims it's pretty. It's pretty. I mean we're talking hundreds, so it's pretty hard. But you want to go into detail with each of them because you want to see patterns and you want to see Triggers and help them recognize the things that led them to thinking that it was okay to To harm someone in an extremely horrible way, you know. And so that's all about discovery. It's all about disclosure and discovery.
Kellen Winslow:And the third tier is about developing empathy for the victim, having a better understanding of the harm that they caused the victim and also understanding the harm that that befell them, whether in childhood or just throughout their life. A lot of them you said that a lot of them have been victimized, and that's true. About 25 to 30% of sex offenders were sexually abused as a child. But when you, when you include all types of abuse, like neglect and physical and emotional, sexual. It's about 99%. So it's very rare that you find someone who's harmed somebody else and they go yeah, my life was Perfect it's.
Kellen Winslow:There's usually pretty, pretty drastic experiences that push them in a certain direction and you know we can talk about why that happens, but that's that's a little bit more of a clinical conversation than a Spiritual one. But and then the last phase of treatment, which is phase four or tier four, is just Preparing them to get back in the community and preparing them for, like, relapse prevention and Helping them learn how to recognize high risk situations and triggers and things like that so that they don't reoffend. So they all in all the program takes anywhere from about five to seven years. Some of them take longer because they're either not doing the treatment or they're. They have a lot of victims so they have to. They have to do Certain amount of treatment for each victim, so sometimes it takes longer, but it's pretty lengthy process.
Alisha Coakley:So it's interesting because you had mentioned just a second ago how like you could get into the more clinical Conversation of of all of that and the healing and everything like that.
Alisha Coakley:But I think for me and I mean maybe you don't agree, you obviously know more about this than I do but For me I almost feel like they're all connected anyway. You know, I mean, like, like when we look at Heavenly Father, we look at the way that he designed our brains for one right and we Understand, like when we can understand how our brain works and when we can understand what trauma does to our brain. And then, especially for those of us who have experienced some type of trauma or abuse On any level, even if it doesn't, even if the world would look at it and be like, oh, that's no big deal like maybe some people would be like you know, oh, my parents got divorced. No, it was no big deal, but even divorce can be very traumatic for some children, right, like it could be something that really Spins them. And do you feel like the more that you've learned clinically, the more you can see Heavenly Father spiritually in the way that, like he's designed everything, including healing, including that whole process of rehabilitation?
Kellen Winslow:Yes, absolutely, excuse me, I think the yeah, I don't really know how to say it more clearly. It's just so amazing how much the gospel overlaps with with treatment and with mental health and with everything under the sun, especially when it comes to forgiveness. I don't think people understand. Obviously, we're taught in the church that there's a spiritual significance to forgiving. It's a commandment okay, we're expected to forgive others. In fact, we're commanded to forgive all men. Okay, but there is a dramatic clinical Significance when it comes to forgiving people. It's, it is the key to healing. There's there's no other way to really heal from trauma and abuse. If you don't forgive the people who who committed the trauma and abuse against you, it's just not gonna happen. And I what's amazing to me Because I've worked with with offenders, but you know, I've also had the opportunity to talk to a lot of victims because of this job as well and I I ask every everyone I talk to you, I ask would you or have you been able to forgive the man who did this to you?
Kellen Winslow:And I get mixed answers, but usually it's it's no. There's no way I would forgive them. When I asked my clients that the ones who abused others, the ones that that are in there for sexually offending against others. When I asked them, would you forgive the people who abused you as a child, almost always it's yeah, and I think it's because they understand the, they want to be forgiven, they, they want to feel that and and they're like, well, if I want it, I need to give it, and they have a lot more of an open mind about forgiving others for the things that they've, that they've done or that have been done to them. So it's just when you talk about, like bitterness and you talk about people who just Can't see past their abuse, it's it's deeply rooted in In forgiveness, and I don't see, I don't see you see healing occur where forgiveness doesn't occur. In fact, I see the opposite.
Kellen Winslow:When people don't forgive, they often go down the path to harming others. It doesn't mean that they're harming others illegally. There's a lot of ways you can harm others and not get arrested. So a lot of people can be like, well, I've never been arrested, I never abuse anyone else. Well, yeah, you might not have done that, but you're, you're yelling at your kids and you're cussing people out and you're, you know, taking advantage of their people financially. You know, there there's a certain Step you need to take to heal from your abuse so that you're not abusing others, and If that step is skipped and it's detrimental to yourself and people you love.
Scott Brandley:So yeah, interesting. Yeah, what about restitution? Do they have to do the abusers as part of the process? Do they have to try to apologize in some way, or how does that work?
Kellen Winslow:yeah, good question. So they don't. There's very rare cases where they will. It's a it's a crime to contact your, your victim. So unless there I mean there's some circumstances like if the victim was like a child to the offender and upon release they're going to be living at home again or whatever it might be, and the state allows that, then yeah, they can. There needs to be some sort of restitution process, but 90% of the time they just say no, no contact. I don't care how close you were before in the world, it's not going to happen. You know so. But there's rare cases will allow that.
Kellen Winslow:What we do instead is we have them write, write a letter of forgiveness and they don't send it, or not forgiveness, sorry. Writing a letter to them to try to Just tell the victim that I'm accepting responsibility for what I did to you. I know that I harmed you in you know, unexplainable ways and it's all about they don't ask for. They don't ask for forgiveness, they don't. They don't say I'm sorry, you know, because I think a lot of victims may feel that that's a slap in the face and so they just purely accept responsibility for what they did, they remind the victim that they're not to blame and they just they take it all on their own shoulders. But that letters never sent. If it is, it's because it's been approved by, like a judge to do that. So, gotcha.
Scott Brandley:Do you notice?
Alisha Coakley:do you notice a shift when they write those letters like? Do you notice a change in them when they actually take that, that responsibility on, of Of ownership, I guess?
Scott Brandley:Yeah, along along with that, do they. Is there a point in time where you see them change?
Kellen Winslow:Added to that question yeah, I wouldn't say there's like a specific point in time. They change like around that two year mark. You know, it really just depends on the individual. I mean, I have clients that have been in the same boat for seven years and will never admit that they did what they did, and I really can't sit here and tell you why. I really don't. It baffles me. I don't understand why they do that. Some of them but that is not the most, I mean, most of them are very forthcoming and are very, you know, accepting.
Kellen Winslow:But as far as like a change, it usually it's just like this light bulb moment. Suddenly they just light flicks on in their mind and they they realize that they can't, If they want to continue to live the way they live their life. Then more people are going to get hurt because of it and once they understand that, it's a dramatic change in attitude and motivation. But I wouldn't say that there's a specific time that happens. It's an individual moment for every individual and they have to. They have to cross that bridge on their own. You know, I can't force them to get there. Some people are. Some people arrive at the facility that way. They're just ready to go and they're like look, I never want to do this again, Please help me. And other people will you know, claw and punch and kick the whole way through the program because they just will not accept it. You know, so it's. It's an individual journey, for sure. I don't. I don't know if there's a specific timeframe for that.
Alisha Coakley:So OK, so I'm going to switch directions here just for a minute, and I don't know. Sometimes I get weird, so I apologize, it's OK. Sometimes you know what's not. You ask me to be your co-host.
Scott Brandley:So just kidding yeah. Ok, I guess it's like it's a two-parter here.
Alisha Coakley:So one part one is how do you feel like your priesthood you know being able to to, Because you can't use it right Like can't like give blessings to people and you can't say prayers with them at work and stuff like that but how has having the priesthood been able to help you in your career, especially with working with the sex offenders?
Alisha Coakley:And then the second part, and this is where I go weird you mentioned the client that had this belief that he was possessed, right, that he had a demon inside of him, and we know from from scriptures that there were a lot of possession that had happened back when Christ walked the earth and beforehand, and stuff like that. Do you think that it's still happening? Do you think that maybe there could possibly be some legitimacy in what he's saying and in having all of that trauma happen to him and then taking part in all of that sin, right? Do you think that he has opened himself up to having those negative evil influences and I don't I don't mean it doesn't have to be possession per se, but just having like the constant influence of evil surrounding him Do you feel like that is definitely something that could be tied to a lot of a lot of these people.
Kellen Winslow:I'll answer your second question first. I don't know, I think that if you're not guided by the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, it definitely leaves room for other things to influence and guide you. And I don't know if that means that the devil is possessing you or that you're just more inclined to, to follow negative influences, I think. I also think that schizophrenia is a very real condition that a lot of people suffer from. So I don't have, I don't, I don't really feel like I have enough information to really answer that, but I will say that on my mission I had experiences where I really truly felt like there were, you know, those those type of situations with like an evil spirit or something like that. But but as far as these clients, I, I think if, if you've, you know, continuously been influenced by, by negative influences and and I'll even say evil influences at times, then it's going to be hard to just kick that overnight, and so there there can be some overlap there, I believe. But as to say that he was possessed, I just don't know. I don't, I don't really know the answer to that. But as far as your first question about, like the priesthood and no, I can't give priesthood blessings. But I I will say that I have never been more grateful in my life for the gift of discernment. It has been a every every day presence for me. It was funny because I was actually just talking about this the other day. When you're daily in entrenched in some of the most evil content that you can think of, you know, and, and you don't just sit there and listen to it, I mean you have to kind of go into that mindset to understand why these people did what they did and then help them get out. You can't do that without the spiritual influence of the Holy Ghost, you just can't do it. And so when you're daily entrenched in that, it means that you have to really work even harder at home to make sure that you're, you're always having the spirit with you, you know you're not taking, you're not participating in inappropriate content in any ways, you know you're not even watching movies that have nudity. You're not even. You're just, you're trying to completely block out any negative influence. And I can't, I can't speak enough about the dangers of pornography. When it comes to this, I don't know how many times I've heard a client say well, I never had this desire until I started looking at pornography. It's just, it's just, it's. It's for lack of a better term as a gateway draw. I mean it's kind of the door that opens up a lot of these guys's imaginations and fantasies and you just have to separate yourself from some of these negative influences. And, honestly, the bigger issue isn't like people walking around and just looking at porn all the time, but it's, it's.
Kellen Winslow:I want to say passive discipleship. I want to say passive discipleship. Ok, you're just kind of passively going through the motions, you're not doing anything bad, but you sure are doing anything good either. Right, and for me to do this job and to feel like I can separate myself from this, I have to try to surround my life with good things. I can't, I can't stand on neutral ground and expect me to be strong enough to withstand the things that I have to withstand. And so this isn't like a sermon of like self righteousness that I'm like doing everything right but I can't.
Kellen Winslow:I can't survive this job if I don't try my absolute best, outside of that facility, to surround myself with, with pure spiritual and in beautiful influences. And I have a lot to thank my wife for that. I mean she keeps my home. The spirit is always welcome here because of her. You know it's a protection for me. My kids are protected here. I feel that every day and it's because we work very hard to keep the spirit in our house and in our lives and I can't imagine doing this work without that influence. So it would be impossible, right.
Alisha Coakley:I'm glad that you mentioned her, because I was actually thinking about that and I was. I was going to ask you how do you and and your wife work together? I mean, because obviously there's you know, the patient confidentiality and stuff, and so there's things that, like, you can't tell her, I'm sure, and then things that you just probably don't want to tell her because it's so dark.
Alisha Coakley:But, how do you guys, how, how was I guess? How is she a support to you? And how do you lean on each other spiritually and even just like emotionally and mentally? And you know what does that look like.
Kellen Winslow:Come follow me. It's the. It's the groundbreaking program that the church came out with a couple years back. But I'm dead serious, it's that has been a life changer for our marriage.
Kellen Winslow:Yeah, we, we don't study it together, but we study it separately, and then we have a lot of discussions about it and just having having the type of relationship with my spouse that I can speak openly about spiritual things brings a lot of spiritual power. And if I come home from a really hard day, I don't have to tell her anything. She already knows, like she can just tell, and so we're just, we're spiritually on this on like the same wavelength where we understand each other and she knows if something's bothering me and I don't have to tell her anything about it. I just say, yeah, it was a hard day. I just I need a moment and she'll always respect that, you know. But come follow me has been really the key to us. Trying to keep our homes separate from my work. I just I can't do that to my family. I cannot bring this work home. So that has been the key to that for sure.
Scott Brandley:I was actually going to ask that question, so I'm glad you talked about it. So my question to you is Are there, have there been success stories, like reasons that were all worth it right, like all this time and all this difficulty, where it's been worth it for you to help these, these people?
Kellen Winslow:Yeah, there has been. So it's. It's not as frequent as I would like, but the, you know there are men that get through the program and are re instated into the community and and are very successful there. And and not only are they, you know, just not harming people, but they're productive citizens, they're starting businesses, they're, you know, helping, like, spread awareness of of the things that they went through, that kind of pushed them in this direction. They're, they're they're helping with these different agencies and these different charities and stuff to try to protect children against sexual abuse. So there's a lot of good that's coming out of, out of the Texas Civil Commitment Center. You know there's a lot of people who are coming out of that facility, not as many as I'd like. I wish that the program was more fluid in that way, because I think there's a lot of men there that are that are ready to go home today, you know. But it's just nothing works. Nothing works quickly in the justice system, as you know. So, but almost every day I see a success story that just kind of like hits me and goes up. That's why I'm doing this job.
Kellen Winslow:I could think of, you know, one man. Ok, he, he's been in the program for Well, he's been in the program for a long time, much longer, but he's been at the facility for about Eight years now, or so, ok, and he was one of those that was just kind of head against the wall all the time. Just no one would, no one could tell him anything. He was just really negative and really rebellious and he was fighting people and uses, getting in a lot of trouble all the time. And then one day just kind of hit him and he said you know what I want to see my son? I better get my act together, you know. And over the last two years he's really made like the conscious decision to do this.
Kellen Winslow:And every single day you can see a little bit of a difference. And it's not just it's, it's not just you know them getting out, it's the fact that they're A better person today and you can just see it in their eyes, their countenance changes. They, they're, they're smiling more, they're laughing more, they're more positive. You can, you can just tell a real difference and I know that. You know me and my coworkers are a part of that. So it makes me, makes me feel like I'm doing something important today, because it is a very long process and people just don't get out every day, you know. So it's, and if you look at it in that way, it's like man, I don't feel like I'm doing anything, but if you look at the daily steps that these people make, it's pretty amazing. So it's cool.
Alisha Coakley:So I don't know if I want to ask this, I'm just going to make a statement. I just had a thought. I'm just going to make a statement because, you know, I don't know what you are or aren't doing, but we had a guest on a little while ago. Her name was Tammy and she talked about how part of her story she included was that she went to this like youth conference and there was a speaker there and you know she had this birthmark on her face and he made a comment about oh, did someone spill Kool-Aid on you or something you know? And he felt so bad about that afterwards and he wanted to talk to her but she ended up having to go to another class or something, and so for years he would continually put her name in the temple, or not her name, but because he didn't know her name, but he was just you know girl with the birthmark like, and he just kept putting her name in the temple all the time.
Alisha Coakley:And so I wonder how much of a difference it might make if people were putting the names of you know, like in your position, profession, when you're working with counseling and stuff like that, if you were to start putting names if you aren't already in the temple. You know, like how would that, how would that, you think, affect people if we as members of the church, started adding more names to that temple prayer role? You know with co-workers, with clients, with patients, with family members, with abusers, you know, with the people who harmed us. Like, how do you think that that could, could help our own testimony by maybe taking that action?
Kellen Winslow:I, I, um, when I go to the temple, I, I think about you know how I can help my clients a lot, but it was really you brought up the temple. It just made me think of this story. So, um, one of the one of the biggest and I know it like it's a kind of a cliche saying, but allow me to explain but one of the biggest lessons that I've learned while working with with sex offenders is how infinite the atonement really is. Okay, we hear that phrase all the time. The power, you know the infinite power, the atonement, or the atonement, is infinite. You know Tadar Kallash's book, infinite atonement. So that's a well-known phrase, but it it hits differently to me now and I'll tell you why.
Kellen Winslow:So, um, there was a? Uh, where I grew up in our community, there was a man who was arrested for molesting his two daughters. Okay, and it was pretty well known in the community. And, uh, fast forward 10, 15 years or whatever, I don't, I don't know how much time passed, but my, my father was in the temple and he was doing stuff in the temple and and then, when he went into the slusher room there he saw it, you know, dressed in white, this man who had molested his children in the past. And you know we can think what we want about that situation. Somebody can take that situation and go well, he must have lied, you know he must have whatever. The opposite is true. He went to the bishop, he went to the stake president, he did what he was supposed to, he repented, he did everything that was asked for him from him, from a priesthood holder, and he was forgiven.
Kellen Winslow:And there's there's a point in time that you have to decide for yourself. You either believe in the atonement or you do not. Okay, and there's not a lot of middle ground there. If you believe that the atonement is real, then that covers everything. I mean, it doesn't just cover your sins and my sins, it covers everyone's sins, no matter how extreme they are or no matter how little we are. And I say little because we're all beggars when it comes to falling short of the glory of God. Right, and so you can.
Kellen Winslow:You can think what you want about that situation, but we're all in need of the atonement of Jesus Christ. And, honestly, if you want to believe that they're in more need of the atonement than we are, then you know why not put their name on the temple sheet of paper. Why not pray for them? They're if, if that's your view, they need it more than anybody. I don't believe that. I think we all need it equally. I think the sacraments are very good at.
Kellen Winslow:You know, symbol of that case, it's both individual. Okay, the pieces of bread are broken up and they're very different, and none of the two pieces of bread are alike, just like none of the two people in the congregation are alike. But when we take the water it's all the same size cup. We don't have a big cup for sex offenders and little cups for people who cuss and medium cups for people who do this, and there's just one size cup and it's universal and it's infinite and it and it covers everybody the same. You know, we don't need, we don't need more of the atonement here and less of the atonement here. We all stand in equal and individual need of the atonement and I couldn't learn that lesson as well as I have without working with the population that I work with.
Kellen Winslow:Because if I believe that the atonement can work for me, then why wouldn't it work for my client? Why wouldn't it work for him If he's sincerely trying, if he's sincerely doing his part? Now. I know it's not just a free card we get to pass out, it's not like that. But if you're sincerely doing everything, you know how to do to overcome your challenges and to accept responsibility for the harm you caused, and you're trying to repent the way you know how to repent and you're trying to be forgiven the way you know how to be forgiven, who's to say that? They can't have that? You know you either believe the atonement is real or it's not. And as soon as you make that decision, everything else needs to fall in line with that, and I can't stress that point enough.
Kellen Winslow:You know, if you don't, I can't do my job. If I don't believe the atonement applies to them, I know that I'm doing treatment, but in reality I'm just helping these individuals apply the atonement in their life without them really knowing about it. Right, I mean, I'm not going to sit here and pretend like I'm the one who helps them change. It's all going back to Christ. I just I don't say those words in my treatment groups. I use different words, but it's all the same. So I'm glad you brought that up. So.
Scott Brandley:All right. Well, kellan, this has been awesome. We really appreciate you sharing your thoughts and your experiences and your story with us. Is there anything that you'd like to leave our audience with, or any thoughts that you have? So we wrap this up.
Kellen Winslow:Yeah, I just want to share one more quote, if you don't mind. Yeah, well, a couple actually. So I think that if I can just leave the audience with one thought, it's how forgiveness is a process, and less important than wondering when we're going to finish that process is when we're going to make the decision to start that process. Maybe somebody's not ready to forgive their abuser today, but you can start by forgiving the other people that you may feel are responsible for your abuse, whether it be a parent who didn't know about something, or a teacher who who didn't report abuse, or yourself. A lot of victims blame themselves. You may not be ready to take the big step at the end, but eventually you're going to need to take that step, and taking these little steps might help you get there.
Kellen Winslow:There's a beautiful talk by well, it's not a talk, it's a Christmas devotional. It's by President Nelson in 2018. And he talks about three gifts that Christ gives us as we apply the Atom in our lives. And the first he says he gave you and me an unlimited capacity to love. That includes the capacity to love the unlovable and those who not only do not love you but presently persecute you and despitefully use you. Through his infinite atonement.
Kellen Winslow:You can forgive those who have hurt you and who may never accept responsibility for the cruelty to you. It is usually easy to forgive one who sincerely and humbly seeks for your forgiveness, but the Savior will grant you the ability to forgive anyone who has mistreated you in any way. Then their hurtful acts can no longer kinker your soul. I want to testify that that is a real promise. I see it every single day in my job.
Kellen Winslow:These men who have committed horrible crimes have had horrible actions taken out against them in their childhood and their youth, and I've seen very amazing experiences of forgiveness and atonement every single day in my job. My job would not be possible without it, and so I encourage you to pray, and I encourage you to seek counsel on how to take those steps in forgiveness and ask the Lord for help. We do not need to bring more sorrow and stress into our life over something that the Lord has already sacrificed himself for. He has already paid that debt. He's already paid that burden. You don't need to do it anymore. He can help you take that step to forgiving those who need to be forgiven. I leave that with you in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.
Alisha Coakley:Amen. Thank you so much. I am so grateful that you were able to come on here and give us this perspective, because I love that last quote that you shared, that we have the capacity to love the unlovable. Just to piggyback on your testimony, I can testify myself that it is possible, and more possible. It is powerful when you're actually able to do the work to forgive those who did wrong to you and to just kind of let that go into the hands of the Savior and let the atonement do what it was meant to do to not only help you to heal, but to help you to forgive and to help others to be able to find healing as well. And I know that it is a very long journey.
Alisha Coakley:I shared today in Sunday School just how there's a motto that I've been living by lately, which is just it may not be my fault, but it is my responsibility. The things that happen to us may not be our fault, but it is definitely our responsibility to take those steps towards healing and towards becoming the person that our Heavenly Father needs us to be. And I can promise you our Heavenly Father doesn't need us to be victims anymore of our circumstances or of our disabilities or our handicaps or our trauma. He doesn't need that. He needs us to heal and he has so many amazing resources out there for us, both spiritually and secular type of resources all across the plane, and I promise you that there are resources that can help you guys, and I can just say that it is.
Alisha Coakley:It is a. I wish that there were a word better than freeing, but freeing is like the only word I can think of. It just it feels so freeing to be able to actually forgive. It really really does. It takes time, definitely takes time. It doesn't happen overnight and sometimes like things will come back around and you'll be like nope, nope, I haven't actually forgiven you yet, I'm almost there, but I'm just going to be like I haven't forgiven you yet, I'm almost there. But, but it is a beautiful thing and, with the help of our Heavenly Father and our Savior, jesus Christ, we can definitely see that other end of you know of hardship and hurt. And we can. We can truly not only be the ones that have healed, but we can help others to heal as well on their journey.
Alisha Coakley:So thank you so much, kellan, for coming on and for sharing all of your, your insights and your perspectives today. We've really, really enjoyed it. I think this is such a good conversation to have, especially nowadays in society, because there's I mean, there are so many members of the church who not only have experienced trauma but who are being the ones who are dishing out trauma too. You know, and like you said, it may not be in these big, huge, illegal ways, but but you know, it really is our responsibility to heal from the things that have happened to us so that we're not continuing that that negative train, you know. So we're not keeping that in our families. So we really appreciate you coming on here today.
Kellen Winslow:Love to be in here. Thank you, it was awesome.
Scott Brandley:I liked what you said. You don't have to carry it around anymore. You I mean people could decide today I'm not going to carry it around anymore today and start making changes now to to forgive or to be forgiven Absolutely.
Alisha Coakley:Yeah For sure. All right, guys. Well, that is all that we have for today to our listeners. Thank you so, so much for tuning in for another edition of Latter Day Lights. Scott and I are so excited. We just got some numbers back. We have had over a hundred thousand listeners from yeah, for you know us doing this for about a year and a half so far.
Alisha Coakley:That just it makes me so happy. It honestly humbles me. It gets me a little emotional, thinking about how many stories have been shared and how many more stories are going to be continued to shared. You know to be shared on this podcast, and so we're so, so thankful to you guys. We just ask that you continue to do your five second missionary work right. Hit that share button, comment on here. Let us know what your favorite part of this episode was. Leave a message for Kellen, you know, just letting him know what you thought of the show. And if you guys have a story that you'd like to share you know someone who would make a great guest please be sure to either comment or email us. You can head over to LatterDayLightscom. We have a form at the bottom of the page where you guys can send us an email. We would love to hear from you.
Scott Brandley:Definitely. Thanks again, kellen, for being on the show, of course, and we will talk to everyone next week. Until then, take care, bye, guys.